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artbell New Member
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 7 Location: belvedere, ca 94920
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:37 am Post subject: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? |
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I know this sounds like an ignorant question, and may be, but I had a new King flugelhorn that was just plain flat (or sharp) on some scale notes, and I had to lip them up or down like crazy to prevent really bad harmonies. My bad or in the nature of the flugelhorn? Thanks! |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:29 am Post subject: |
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I'm working on a new king flugel right now...
I would say that it plays pretty nice and sounds good.
The low D is perfectly in tune with the 3rs slide all the way in! that's weird.
BUT, the Eb (2-3) right next to it is only a little flat, so that area is not too bad.
The low C is right on the money, lots of flugels are flat there. So that is nice too.
The 3rd space C is about 15 cents sharp, and it locks in pretty good, which makes you want to pull the main slide out a little, and then the whole horn goes flat. If you can get used to holding that C down, just about like a C trumpet, the horn works great. The 4th space E and Eb are good, as well as the D right next to them. The upper G is good too, and the A.
SO the worst note is "tuning note C"
I like the way it feels. It responds better with a longer throat mouthpiece, but the upper register above high C is better with a shorter throat mouthpiece.
It takes a yamaha shank by the way, or at least works good with a yamaha shank.
I'm pulling the main slide out about a full inch, and The other slides are all the way in. 1-2 combinations are all good, and 2-3 are either good or flat. Dont pull that 3rd slide!
Doug M _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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tjeffries New Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 Posts: 9
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: |
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I always thought that was true- generally they tend to be sharp in the low register, flat in the high register. However, my Hub van Laar flugel is one of the most in-tune instruments I've ever played, so it is possible to make them work. |
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Hzinno Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 135 Location: Middlebury, CT
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Flugel |
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I play a Scodwell Flugel that has a tuning slide in addition to the leadpipe tuning. Plays wonderfully in tune. _________________ Yamaha Xeno 8335RGM w/MK Drawings mods.
Kanstul 1601
Kanstul 1500 b-flat
Kanstul 1503 c
LA Benge Pic
Tony Scodwell Flugel
1957 Conn Customized Valve Trombone
Getzen Eterna Cornet
French Besson Meha
Tony Scodwell Boston Bflat |
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swingshift Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 449 Location: western pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: |
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i have a really old couesnon which is fine except my low c#...everything else is fine.... _________________ "beneath my goodie twoshoes lie some very dark socks..." lisa Simpson
Carol 5000 ylt-slt
bach 229 c with MC 2 pipe
yamaha 631 flug
jin bao rotary piccolo trumpet
wedge 5BC 25 and 5DC 25 with heavyweight Barrel ML shank |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: |
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To be clear, all instruments in the trumpet family have imperfect intonation. To play in tune we must continuously compensate with the lip and slides. I don't know if the flugel is any worse than the Bb but it seems to me that I'm more conscious of the need to adjust when playing the flugel. Now the picc...don't get me started. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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oliver king Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Posts: 1743
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | To be clear, all instruments in the trumpet family have imperfect intonation. To play in tune we must continuously compensate with the lip and slides. I don't know if the flugel is any worse than the Bb but it seems to me that I'm more conscious of the need to adjust when playing the flugel ..... |
+1
I recognize if I am going to double, I need to pay particular attention to the flugel and practice it as much as and in the same way as the trumpet. _________________ LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3, |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | all instruments in the trumpet family |
I thought the flugel was in the tuba family. Isn't it just a piccolo tuba? _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)
Last edited by crzytptman on Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ConnArtist Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008 Posts: 2834 Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Just a thought...
I wonder if deep cup flugel mpc is a bigger part of the story than slide lengths, etc.
When I started playing a deep (Yamaha E-cup) mpc on my trumpet, intonation was all over the place, and I was disappointed that I found a mpc with perfect timbre, but horrid intonation. Then, within a couple weeks, intonation on the trumpet was spot on, and I was not even *consciously* compensating.
If one does not routinely play flugel and/or deep mouthpiece, perhaps the poor intonation on the flugel is really just inexperience/poor technique??
I have not had major intonation issues with either my old Belgian Flugel, or my FrankenFlugel, other than one or two notes (and just about all of the "trumpet family" have one or two funky notes). _________________ "Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
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mcahynuacrkd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 1149
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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crzytptman wrote: | Quote: | all instruments in the trumpet family |
I thought the flugel was in the tuba family. Isn't it just a piccolo tuba? |
French Horn _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5234 Location: ca.
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? |
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artbell wrote: | I know this sounds like an ignorant question, and may be, but I had a new King flugelhorn that was just plain flat (or sharp) on some scale notes, and I had to lip them up or down like crazy to prevent really bad harmonies. My bad or in the nature of the flugelhorn? Thanks! |
Mine is NEVER out of tune....Of course I never play with any other instruments which makes it easier....
"So, I got that goin' for me.....Which is nice". Carl Spackler
_________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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crzytptman wrote: | Quote: | all instruments in the trumpet family |
I thought the flugel was in the tuba family. Isn't it just a piccolo tuba? |
Piccolo tuba? Hmm... interesting.
Well, trumpets are cylindrical bore instruments - meaning that the bore size remains mostly constant (the same) through most of the instrument until you reach the bell. If you take a tuning slide you should be able to flip it and fit it back upside down (unless it's an over/under design). Trombones are the other primary brass instrument which is also cylindrical bore.
Flugelhorns are conical bore instruments - meaning that the bore size increases throughout the instrument. There are many conical bore instruments in the brass family - cornets, flugels, horns (as in french horns), euphoniums, and tubas.
So, I suppose, in a way you're sort of correct. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: y |
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Yes |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? |
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artbell wrote: | I know this sounds like an ignorant question, and may be, but I had a new King flugelhorn that was just plain flat (or sharp) on some scale notes, and I had to lip them up or down like crazy to prevent really bad harmonies. My bad or in the nature of the flugelhorn? Thanks! |
I own a Kanstul Chicago 1025 flugel and it is at least as in tune as the typical Bb trumpet made today. I have played their 1525 flugel and didn't find any intonation issues.
Flip Oakes' flugel is very much in tune, as well. It is Kanstul-made to Flip's specifications
Getzen asked Byron Autrey to help solve the intonation issues they were having with a new flugel model, sometime back. He found the error in the bell branch taper. When that was corrected, the horn played with good intonation.
Knowlege of flugel building has grown lately (the last forty years or so) and we benefit from the advances when we buy a new horn. The vintage ones...?
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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TheLawTalkingGuy Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 392 Location: Halifax, NS (Canada)
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? |
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shofarguy wrote: | I have played their 1525 flugel and didn't find any intonation issues. |
Agreed. I am by no means an accomplished player, but my Kanstul 1525 doesn't seem to have any tuning issues - hardly need to trigger the C# & D at all. _________________ John Underhill
The purpose of all music is "the glory of God and the re-creation of the human spirit." (J.S. Bach)
(Flag Graphics Courtesy of 3DFlags.com) |
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djpearlman Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2002 Posts: 461 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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The same goes for the Scodwell flugel. I removed the third valve trigger from mine, it was unnecessary... _________________ Dan Pearlman
Santa Fe, NM
- Monette Cornette
- Andalusia Cornet
- Carolbrass Pocket Trumpet
- Monette mouthpieces
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5NafoVeXrsRm-fOhKaIpnA |
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rank_amateur Veteran Member
Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 483
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? |
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shofarguy wrote: | I own a Kanstul Chicago 1025 flugel and it is at least as in tune as the typical Bb trumpet made today... |
I too own a 1025 and I agree with you - mostly. Certainly in the common flugel range my 1025 is just as in tune as my Lawler Bb and much better in tune than my King C. However above the staff (where I rarely go on flugel anyway), it does have a tendency to go a bit flat - especially from high c on up. _________________ Brent Edwards
Lawler TL1-1A Bb
King 2065 copper bell C
Kanstul 1025 Flugel
Curry mouthpieces |
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Matthew Anklan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1085 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I love my Yamaha flugel, plays as much in tune as my Bb. I have noticed, however, that a lot of people have a tendency to pull their tuning slide out TOO far on the flugel. That would obviously cause some issues. _________________ Matthew Anklan
www.matthewanklan.com |
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Mikeytrpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 5028 Location: Richfield, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: |
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My Scodwell flugel is incredibly in tune!
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