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Dufcapers Regular Member
Joined: 11 May 2015 Posts: 50 Location: Saint Louis
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:15 am Post subject: To paint or not to paint.... |
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That is the question.
But seriously, last year I upgraded my horn and bought a nice Harrelson. I kept my Yammy 6310z as a back-up and i bring it on stage every gig for those "just in case" instances when, gods forbid, I might need a second horn at the ready. I play solely in a pop/dance band.
I long ago removed the lacquer from the Yammy, but I'm wondering about painting it for a bit of flash on stage. Either black with some artistic red flames down the bell, or an all over red. Obviously the how is easy enough - seal off holes, tape off slides, spray paint with a brass specialty paint, then seal. No problem.
My question is, has anyone done this with good results? I know there are a couple of professionals on the market doing this (Juleez comes to mind), but I'm also not looking to spend $1000+ on my back-up. So DIY is the route I'm willing to foot the bill on.
Thoughts? Experiences? |
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Shawnino Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 255
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:32 am Post subject: |
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I know you are trying to keep costs down.
I would still want to try it on a desperately cheap horn before I tried it on a pro horn, making sure the cheapo didn't play any worse after the paint job. |
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Dufcapers Regular Member
Joined: 11 May 2015 Posts: 50 Location: Saint Louis
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:47 am Post subject: |
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That's not a bad plan. I have a couple of cheapo's kicking around the house that I could do first. Good idea! |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2021 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think it sounds like a really fun project. Let us know how it turns out - with pics if you can. And good luck!! _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 737 Location: SE US
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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JonathanM wrote: | I think it sounds like a really fun project. Let us know how it turns out - with pics if you can. And good luck!! |
I will be an enthusiastic 2nd to JM's posit!
Life is Short, find the Joy in it!
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 721 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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About 10 years ago, I got the "bright idea" to paint an Olds Ambassador in a red, white, and blue stars and stripes pattern. I figured finger nail polish would come in bright colors, and be really tough. I play in a brass band ( 3rd stand back then, Eb now) that played several patriotic concerts around July 4th. I even finished a set of mutes I had laying around in patriotic colors.
Anyway, my point here is that a full bottle of nail polish only covers about a square inch or so, if you want strong colors on your horn. I came out looking pretty good, but I spent about $70 or $80 on nail polish. I kept making trips all day long buying a few bottles of polish at a time. Of course the clerks at our small town Walmart were curious, so I told them what I was up to. They still thought I was strange.
While it does make a tough finish, I think there are more efficient ways to paint a trumpet. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:03 am Post subject: |
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It makes a big difference what KIND of paint you use. Choose poorly and it looks like garbage.
I don't have any special insight into what is correct and not, because I've never had any desire to do this. But, I have seen (and once, accidently purchased) a horn that was painted by some amateur and looked, felt, smelled poor.
I recall Tony Scodwell - who is a trumpet builder and posts on here from time to time - mentioned something about making a blue flugel for Doc once. Might be worth checking into that. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 432 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Is this thread for real? If so, I apologize for the apparent snark, but it’s been talked about many times how the lacquer finishes of old dampened sound (newer lacquer, not so much). That’s why Schilkes were never lacquered. It seems to me that paint would be worse because it would likely be thicker.
If I’m wrong, then perhaps a 4” brush and some self-leveling latex…
Sorry, couldn’t resist. _________________ Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc |
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Dufcapers Regular Member
Joined: 11 May 2015 Posts: 50 Location: Saint Louis
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:57 am Post subject: |
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jengstrom wrote: | Is this thread for real? If so, I apologize for the apparent snark, but it’s been talked about many times how the lacquer finishes of old dampened sound (newer lacquer, not so much). That’s why Schilkes were never lacquered. It seems to me that paint would be worse because it would likely be thicker.
If I’m wrong, then perhaps a 4” brush and some self-leveling latex…
Sorry, couldn’t resist. |
I'm sorry you've never done the work to find the facts on this. Fact of the matter is, finish makes little to no difference in tonal color of the instrument. Harrelson has done extensive studies using spectral analysis and blind testing to confirm that any sound difference you ever hear is all in the perception of the player thinking what it *should* sound like and that player manipulating their sound accordingly. i.e. If you *think* it should sound darker, you play so it sounds darker. Dark and Bright not being his favorite terms for the tonal color either, as they're too vague.
Anyway, I digress. Likely as not, unless I'm putting POUNDS of paint on this horn it won't sound any different. Unless i get paint in the valves...that's a whole other post though. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2474
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Dufcapers wrote: | jengstrom wrote: | Is this thread for real? If so, I apologize for the apparent snark, but it’s been talked about many times how the lacquer finishes of old dampened sound (newer lacquer, not so much). That’s why Schilkes were never lacquered. It seems to me that paint would be worse because it would likely be thicker.
If I’m wrong, then perhaps a 4” brush and some self-leveling latex…
Sorry, couldn’t resist. |
I'm sorry you've never done the work to find the facts on this. Fact of the matter is, finish makes little to no difference in tonal color of the instrument. Harrelson has done extensive studies using spectral analysis and blind testing to confirm that any sound difference you ever hear is all in the perception of the player thinking what it *should* sound like and that player manipulating their sound accordingly. i.e. If you *think* it should sound darker, you play so it sounds darker. Dark and Bright not being his favorite terms for the tonal color either, as they're too vague.
Anyway, I digress. Likely as not, unless I'm putting POUNDS of paint on this horn it won't sound any different. Unless i get paint in the valves...that's a whole other post though. |
That's actually not true.
Schilke did the research decades ago, using electronic stimulation of the air column rather than a play-tester (just to remove human factors) and electronic measurement of the spectrum. He demonstrated clearly that the hardness, thickness and weight of finishes do impact the tonal spectrum. (ditto for bell material itself)
Yes, the effect at the player's ear is more pronounced (leak-back travels through the horn instead of projecting from the reflection through air alone) than that at the business end of the bell, but there is an effect there too. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1871 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Hey - it's your trumpet. If you are not concerned about resale valve - have at it.
But before you start spraying paint - you might consider a brass patina option followed by wax. There are several recipes on line and some pre-made formulas available. If you don't like the results, you could then just degrease and paint.
Disclaimer - I was at the cutting edge back in 1962 when I spray painted my Conn Director cornet blue. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 721 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | Hey - it's your trumpet. If you are not concerned about resale valve - have at it.
...........
Disclaimer - I was at the cutting edge back in 1962 when I spray painted my Conn Director cornet blue. |
That reminded me of something I had done back in my *brief* stint in really small town band directing back about 1975. When one of my students forgot their cornet, in the interest of expediance, I would just hand them my horn off the stand, which was usually a drop dead gorgeous Martin Magna with nickel slides and gold brass Shepherd's crook bell. I began to notice my first chair cornet was forgetting her Bundy with startling regularity.
The next time I was in a larger town, I found a pretty nice mechanical condition Olds Abassador trumpet for about $15. The school colors were orange and white, so I spray painted it orange and white, and declared it the "Spirit Trumpet", and anyone forgetting their cornet would play it.
Memories improved drastically! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 737 Location: SE US
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: |
Disclaimer - I was at the cutting edge back in 1962 when I spray painted my Conn Director cornet blue. |
When I was in college in the early 70s, a local music store gave me a new horn to try and show for a while at classes, football/basketball games and my gigs. It was a Holton MF Horn (the model designation? I don't remember...it was the early 70s...) The horn was finished in a brilliant green lacquer that I assumed was factory since it was a new horn. It was really fun to play and it was quite the attention getter. I don't think that the finish impacted the sound at all, but I really didn't have a comparison traditionally finished similar horn to compare.
I once considered having one of my silver plated trumpets custom lacquered in Mardi Gras colors, Green, Gold and Purple when I lived in New Orleans for street gigs. Those were (post divorce) lean days, so I guess that I never figured out how to fund it. Would have been fun though!
Life is Short, find the Joy in it!
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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onlyson Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 229 Location: Bartlett, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:08 am Post subject: |
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There was a company back in the 90's called L.A Sax. It was located in a Chicago suburb near my home and the shop manager was an acquaintance. He set up our band with a few painted horns. As I recall they used a type of automotive paint and process. They looked awesome and got a lot of attention. I had a pocket trumpet done in purple metalflake (like a Dodge Duster), and a nickel plated cornet done in a kind of candy cane swirl. Very cool. Later I had an Olds Ambassador done in Candy Apple Red.
My impression is that it does deaden the sound profile. Mostly the feedback you get behind the horn. With the smaller pocket and cornet it didn't matter much because the bells are still pretty close to your ears, but with the full size trumpet it was awful.
Unfortunately those horns were stolen. I do now have a Carol pocket trumpet in black lacquer. And it does seem a bit less open than the standard lacquered version it replaced. Painted horns will get a lot of attention, but are kind of a drag to play. If I recall, Yamaha made a black lacquer version of the Shew horn. I think it was called the Phoenix. Maybe you could find one of those. Good luck. _________________ Del Quadro Grizzly
Yamaha 9335CH
1951 Martin Committee Deluxe #3 Bore
Couesnon Flugel
Carol Pocket Trumpet |
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Quadstriker Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2021 Posts: 123
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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onlyson wrote: | There was a company back in the 90's called L.A Sax. |
That's the name I was trying to come up with. I remember seeing their ads in industry magazines. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1966
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:56 am Post subject: Trumpets to be painted |
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Crazy Finn has a good memory. Indeed I did a special flugelhorn for Doc Severinsen after he asked if I could make him a blue horn with gold trim. Having tried all my industry friends to see if they could shoot colored lacquer, the best response I got was from Zig Kanstul..."It will #@*& up my spray guns.
At that time only the Orient was doing colored lacquer so as I had restored cars for many years I thought why not try automotive lacquer which is available in standard automotive colors for most of the cars out there in spray bombs. Off to Pep Boys I go and found a blue which I thought Doc might like. It was a GM color for Chevy Suburbans and I "road tested" it on a couple of scrap bells laying around. After cleaning the surface with lacquer thinner I applied the color. So far so good and I dried the paint with a heat gun. To test the durability I lightly scratched the surface with my fingernail and found out the paint wasn't going to last long. I set the test bells aside and sort of put the project aside for the time being. A week later I tried the same scratch test and found the paint to be quite durable now. It must have needed the time to fully cure so now I started on the flugelhorn.
Cleaning all the surfaces to be blue with lacquer thinner and masking any areas off not to be painted and apply the blue lacquer in thin coats evenly. The inside of the bell and top and bottom caps plus other small areas will have gold lacquer applied which I have used before. It is the old style instrument lacquer I get from Allied Supply. After a week of curing I was ready to present the horn to Doc prior to a concert with the Detroit Symphony where he had a couple pieces to play on flugel.
Now you can't tell Doc Severinsen that the color chosen for his horn was Chevy Suburban Blue. I came up with a name I knew he'd go for...Bugatti Blue. He enjoyed the horn for a very short time before he re-signed a deal with Getzen again and he said he felt he had to return my horns. He was playing my Bb trumpet also at the time and he didn't want to jeopardize his new contract. He should've kept the horns as that deal fell apart in six months.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2021 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Tony, as always, it's a pleasure to read what you have to say. Thanks very much for contributing. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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Dufcapers Regular Member
Joined: 11 May 2015 Posts: 50 Location: Saint Louis
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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To all of those with comments about resale value, and the think-before-you-paint worries....
The ease of it already being raw brass, and raw brass that I did myself, is that if I don't like the paint, or do want to sell it - I just get happy with the green scrubby and bye-bye-bye goes the paint. I'm really not all that worried about resale value to begin with, but the fact that spray paint would come off easier than the lacquer did makes it a moot point entirely. |
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Dufcapers Regular Member
Joined: 11 May 2015 Posts: 50 Location: Saint Louis
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Trumpets to be painted |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: | Crazy Finn has a good memory. Indeed I did a special flugelhorn for Doc Severinsen after he asked if I could make him a blue horn with gold trim. Having tried all my industry friends to see if they could shoot colored lacquer, the best response I got was from Zig Kanstul..."It will #@*& up my spray guns.
At that time only the Orient was doing colored lacquer so as I had restored cars for many years I thought why not try automotive lacquer which is available in standard automotive colors for most of the cars out there in spray bombs. Off to Pep Boys I go and found a blue which I thought Doc might like. It was a GM color for Chevy Suburbans and I "road tested" it on a couple of scrap bells laying around. After cleaning the surface with lacquer thinner I applied the color. So far so good and I dried the paint with a heat gun. To test the durability I lightly scratched the surface with my fingernail and found out the paint wasn't going to last long. I set the test bells aside and sort of put the project aside for the time being. A week later I tried the same scratch test and found the paint to be quite durable now. It must have needed the time to fully cure so now I started on the flugelhorn.
Cleaning all the surfaces to be blue with lacquer thinner and masking any areas off not to be painted and apply the blue lacquer in thin coats evenly. The inside of the bell and top and bottom caps plus other small areas will have gold lacquer applied which I have used before. It is the old style instrument lacquer I get from Allied Supply. After a week of curing I was ready to present the horn to Doc prior to a concert with the Detroit Symphony where he had a couple pieces to play on flugel.
Now you can't tell Doc Severinsen that the color chosen for his horn was Chevy Suburban Blue. I came up with a name I knew he'd go for...Bugatti Blue. He enjoyed the horn for a very short time before he re-signed a deal with Getzen again and he said he felt he had to return my horns. He was playing my Bb trumpet also at the time and he didn't want to jeopardize his new contract. He should've kept the horns as that deal fell apart in six months.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Pep boys huh.... Process pretty similar to a normal spray? Keep the area clean, tape/protect like you said the areas you don't want colored, and then spray multiple thin coats? That Mazda red is a beaut... |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Find a tape designed for automotive paint that provides clean lines. Masking tape might do just fine but why not avoid cleaning up fuzzy lines. |
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