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dqjazz Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2007 Posts: 236
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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject: Mouthpiece Comparison Chart |
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Does anyone have a link or can direct me to a link for a mouthpiece comparison chart.
________________________
Bach 3C
Yamaha 8310Z |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Pastor Joe Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 152
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:11 am Post subject: |
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http://www.ibowtie.com/tmptmpccharts.html _________________ Psalm 98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
Getzen 3001MV
Jupiter 846RL Flugel
Getzen Eterna Cornet |
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the buzz Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2005 Posts: 340 Location: Chester, NY
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator
http://www.kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare/CompareIE.HTM _________________ "Some days you get up and put the horn to your chops and it sounds pretty good and you win. Some days you try and nothing works and the horn wins. This goes on and on and then you die and the horn wins."
Dizzy Gillespie |
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gtromble Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Mar 2002 Posts: 644 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Does anyone find these charts remotely useful? Having looked at, played and measured dozens of mouthpieces, my experience is that the published charts are useless, and probably worse. I could give lots of examples, but here's one -- look on any of these charts and see how they represent the difference between a Reeves 42 and 43 -- pretty big difference, and the 43 will be listed down with the Bach 1 1/4C. I've got at least 3 Reeves 43 rims, and they're nowhere near that big. They're also nowhere near a full 1/64 different from the 42.
GT |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: |
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gtromble wrote: | Does anyone find these charts remotely useful | Yes, slightly...I think they serve as a useful guide for approximate sizes. They are obviously not exact but serve as a general comparison between companies to what sizes are closeto each other. If you have that mind set I think you'll be better off. When trying different pieces, I found it helpful to at least have an idea of what I was looking for. |
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lmf Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 2190 Location: Indiana USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:40 am Post subject: Are the charts useful? |
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Hi,
An informed consumer has to find knowledge somewhere? Would we be appreciably better off without the various charts? No!
When looking for mouthpieces, I read reviews, study the charts, and try the mouthpieces.
People have spent considerable time, energy and resources to help others understand mouthpieces. We'd be at a loss, not to study their mouthpiece charts, don't you think?
Best wishes!
Lloyd |
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pfrank Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2002 Posts: 3523 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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The Comparitor gives a better idea with it's actual outlines, but the published numbers of different makers are out of wack often. There seems to be different ideas on where to measure diamiter. All I really need to know is that the Curry 60, Stork 5, Yamaha 13, Schilke 11 or 12, Kanstul-Bach NY 6, Wick 4 cornet, Stomvi 5, and Laskey 60 are all ballpark similar regardless of what the numbers say. And Curry 5 is too big and Warburton 5 is a bit small... where are the 3 bears? |
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altamira_28 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 May 2007 Posts: 241 Location: Huntsville, AL
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I just ordered a Marcinkiewicz 7pb (great piccolo piece if you like Marcie's pieces!) and I arrived at what I wanted by trying different pieces, knowing what I liked about them, and inspecting the mouthpiece manufacturers' charts themselves. They give you a great idea of what size difference and rim shape / size options are available on their own pieces.
I find the all-in-one charts ok for a quick comparison, but not for choosing a piece. _________________ XO Brass 1600I
XO Brass 1602LTR
XO Brass 1646 Flugelhorn
XO Brass Tribune 1622 C Trumpet
Jupiter Tribune 1220 Bb Cornet
Jupiter 1700S
Monette B3S3, C3S3, B4LS1, B4LSS1, B4LVS1, BP6, Bob Reeves 43WF, Denis Wick 3B Heavy Top Cornet |
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DaveH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think mouthpiece charts are worth much outside making huge generalizations. Even at that, some of those generalizations can be pretty far off base. Things are being compared in an area where there is little, if any, basis for comparison or standardization as a means of comparison.
A chart will not help you select the proper mouthpiece. All you can get from a chart are global generalizations, such as a Bach 10C should be smaller than a Bach 1C. Anything more specific or accurate than that, and you're on your own.
I've looked at charts for years, and have concluded that are next to useless for anything other than gross generalizations.
An informed consumer will NOT rely on a chart to pick the best mouthpiece. That is nothing more than a guessing game. |
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gtromble Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Mar 2002 Posts: 644 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Are the charts useful? |
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lmf wrote: | People have spent considerable time, energy and resources to help others understand mouthpieces. We'd be at a loss, not to study their mouthpiece charts, don't you think?
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Lloyd -- I'd agree if the charts were accurate, but they're not. I have found the Kanstul Comparator useful, but many of the other charts simply copy inconsistent and incompatible measurements from manufacturer's tables and present them as if they were consistent and compatible. Perhaps it's a lot of work for them, but it's mostly wasted, IMO, as the data are garbage.
GT |
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lmf Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 2190 Location: Indiana USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: Mouthpiece Charts |
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Hi,
You will recall that I indicated the use of charts, along with reviews and actual trying of mouthpieces.
Anybody here buy any product without reading information about it even though you disagree with what the literature says?
The charts are a guideline that's all. Some charts are better than others, but the more you read, add to it the reviews of people playing the various mouthpieces, and actually trying the mouthpieces will make you an "educated consumer" instead of one who knows very little.
It is the only way to "cut through the hype" of some of the salepersons you encounter as you travel along on your mouthpiece safari.
I realize that not everyone agrees, but that's fine.
Best wishes!
Lloyd |
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skootchy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 1661 Location: Naugatuck, CT
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't take those charts as Gospel as some of those charts are very inaccurate. I would advice getting the specs from a manufacturers site and then looking it up on one of those charts just to see if they are accurate. Maybe we need a chart comparing the charts??? |
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DWHass Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 212 Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Not all manufacturers keep the same rim on all of their mpcs in a given size. The charts will not show this but the comparator does. In oder to have the same rim on all mpcs, you can go with a 3 piece setup which could start adding up into a tidy some of money. You get a rim then various cups and backbores.
I have been toying with an idea....Use the comparator to find a rim that you like, try the mpc out to make sure it is the one you want. Then buy a bunch of the same mpcs hopefully getting them all out of the same lot or manufacturing run and have them recut into the various cups you want. Example take E cup mpcs, recut them to a no letter, A, B, C, deep V, shallow V, etc.
Maybe it would end up costing more, maybe not but then I don't have to keep assembing/disassebling pieces to get the configuration I want.
Any thoughts? _________________ David Hass
1915 Blessing
1919 Holton (alto horn),
1957 Conn 18B Coprion,
1966 Selmer (cornet),
2005 Blessing B155S flugel,
Rexcraft Bugle
Bach, Giardinelli mpcs
North Valley Chamber Orchestra
Bugles Across America member |
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skootchy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 1661 Location: Naugatuck, CT
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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I have a three piece Giardinelli in size 10 and it works out very well. It has taught me a lot about mouthpiece design. I don't use all the permutations that I could as surprisingly some don't work as well as others. The whole idea of the same rim works well...up to a point. I find that when I get into the ES style cups I have to have a wider rim. Those cookie cutter rims just don't do those lead pieces justice. (IMHO) |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: |
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DG,
This might be helpful too. Let's say you have an XYZ that you play on. And you're mulling over buying/trying an ABC mouthpiece.
If you don't want to phone the makers of ABC and ask directly, "what's the best match you make for a XYZ" or you don't want to send them your XYZ to have them check for sure (the #'s vary -- just because Bach says a 3C is such and such dosen't mean the one you have in your case is such and such), [b]on their websites[/b] you might find their own comparison chart. I know Stork has one. |
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Jenny Lee Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2021 Posts: 43
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:42 pm Post subject: How to interpret mouthpiece charts |
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I'm a bit confused as to how to interpret comparison charts like this one:
https://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/fox-charts.php
1. Why is there a row for "Bach Specs" at the top of each size-range table? Are these mouthpiece models from Bach for each relevant size? Is Bach meant to be a benchmark for mouthpiece sizes as represented here?
2. Is it correct to refer to these numbers as mouthpiece "models"? For example:
- The Bach model "1" measures 17.52 mm
- The Schilke models "Symphony M1", "M1d", "F1", and "D1" all measure 17.52 mm
- The Breslmair model "1CG2" measures 17.27 mm
Is this the proper way to refer to individual mouthpieces by manufacturer?
Thanks in advance for any clarification |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if this fully answers your questions, Jenny, but
-Bach mouthpiece sizes are so well known, they are used in most North American mouthpiece charts as a size reference. I believe it's only the inner diameter that is meant to be referenced. The rim contour and rim width, cup depth, venturi, and backbore are usually not reliably similar. Some makers do make clones of Bachs, and they just use the same size numbers. I have a Carol 3C and a Blessing 3C. No one is going to wonder how those compare to Bach. Confusingly, there is at least one maker, Giardinelli, who does have sizes with the same numbering and lettering as Bach, but they are different size mouthpieces.
-So in that chart, all the vertical columns are meant be roughly the same inner diameter, with the Bach size at the top because of their prominence. Instead of models, people usually say Bach "sizes". However there are some variations within Bach, like the Megatone, and Vintage (or whatever they call the throwback line).
-Another issue is, how do you measure inner diameter, when all rims are somewhat curved? Different makers and tinkerers do measure it differently. Jim Fox appears to arrive at different measurements than Bach's official manual, hence the Bach Specs then Bach as Measured. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 911 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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As has been stated, mouthpiece charts are vague generalizations. Every mouthpiece maker that I have experience with that publishes a chart with how their mouthpieces compare to: Yamaha/Schilke, Bach, and Monette, do not actually compare to those mouthpieces.
For example lately I've been trying different mouthpieces that are shown on a comparison chart as corresponding to Bach 1.25 C and Monette B2S3. A Bach 1.25C and a Monette B2S3 feel quite different in the first place.
An AR resonance LC does not feel like a Bach 1.25C OR a Monette B2S3 even if it is shown on their chart as being comparable. A Lotus 1L is also shown on their chart as lining up with the Bach 1.25C and Monette B2S3 but it is different than both as well. |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed, Jaw.
And the rim contour has at least as much effect on perceived diameter as the actual diameter, whose measurement, again, is difficult to standardize. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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