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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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The dragging certainly could be an issue with the valves hanging up on the inner valve casing walls, but it could also be an issue with the valve guides hanging up on the upper portion of the valves where the valve guide rides up and down as the valve button is depressed and released.
I have a Conn Connstellation 38B that had this issue and it turned out to be friction with the valve guides instead of friction with the inner valve casing walls. I used Hetman heavy slide oil on the valve guides and the problem went away. Now, anytime a valve seems to drag I just re-oil the valve guide with heavy slide oil and everything works perfectly again.
As for the noise issue, this could be the valve guides but it could also be an issue with a thin pad clanking against the inner surface of a valve cap. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1022 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Callichio 1s/9. I've never particularly looked at the valve guides, but if they are suspected on your horn, couldn't the problem be diagnosed by switching them? If the problem moves with the valve guide, you have an answer. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 w/french, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS, GR 66CT-Z, & Touvron-D. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Riojazz wrote: | I have a Callichio 1s/9. I've never particularly looked at the valve guides, but if they are suspected on your horn, couldn't the problem be diagnosed by switching them? If the problem moves with the valve guide, you have an answer. |
If the problem moves with the valve guide then the problem could be with the valve guide. If the problem doesn't move with the valve guide then the problem could be the part of the valve assembly where the guide rides. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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homebilly Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2207 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:24 am Post subject: |
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or learn to half valve like Lee Morgan _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com |
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Chadwick Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 150 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: |
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2-5-1 wrote: | If I were you, I would just learn how to consistently press the 2nd valve straight down.
I thought that I had valve issues with ever horn I've ever had until I realized it was me not pressing the valve straight down. |
Good advice, and the equipment malfunction helped a lot in the finger placement development as a result. But nobody's perfect all the time. |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I've owned 2 different 1s7's...yes, LA horns and both had valve
problems.
Was considering trying a Tusla horn until now, thanks!
Seriously...send it back to John. I'm sure he'll take care of it. |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: |
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2-5-1 wrote: | holeypants wrote: | 2-5-1 wrote: | Doubt away homeslice. |
That's gotta be the first time those three words have ever been used together in that sequence - congratulations! |
I felt pretty good about it. |
You people need to get out more.
Anyway, the human finger has a range of motion, it's not a calibrated machine. That's why there is a break in period with new valves, and why valves on a well used horn may be troublesome to a new player who has a different stroke than the original owner. But of course, you already knew that.
I have no idea how that relates to the OP's problem, but as I said if it's a new horn I'd be sending it back to the builder. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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2-5-1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2006 Posts: 1381
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Chadwick wrote: | 2-5-1 wrote: | If I were you, I would just learn how to consistently press the 2nd valve straight down.
I thought that I had valve issues with ever horn I've ever had until I realized it was me not pressing the valve straight down. |
Good advice, and the equipment malfunction helped a lot in the finger placement development as a result. But nobody's perfect all the time. |
Of course.
I think it's a given (or is it?) that you can't press your finger exactly straight down on anything as Crazytrptdude suggests. Even still, how would you measure something like that, then, who would care? That's not the point. The point I was trying to make is to get more of a downward stroke on the valve. I related my own story in that regard. _________________ www.mikesailorsmusic.com |
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mdiceman Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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If you feel the need to send it out, send it to John AFTER you call and talk with him. No sense in sending it to someone else. He'll make sure it's corrected to your satisfaction.
No valve issue w/ a 3/10 I had. Heavy springs. Great valves.
I now have a 1s/2. I, too, have a clanky issue with the 1st valve only. If I give it a small extra turn the clanking stops.
I never have any sticking issues. I use T2 exclusively.
The original springs were heavy. I had them switched to light ones based on my own preference for this particular horn. _________________ Tom Davis
now in Lancaster, PA
exclusively on Pickett Brass - Pickett Blackburn mouthpieces |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | The point I was trying to make is to get more of a downward stroke on the valve. |
Word. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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Chadwick Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 150 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yamahaguy wrote: | I've owned 2 different 1s7's...yes, LA horns and both had valve
problems.
Was considering trying a Tusla horn until now, thanks!
Seriously...send it back to John. I'm sure he'll take care of it. |
Despite the minor valve problem (the 2nd valve comes and goes with it sticking up even with oiling it every other day with Al Cass), the Tulsa version of the Calicchio 1s/2 is a beast of a horn. The clanky sound doesn't come across in my sound in loud situations. The bell is better in that it (apparently) projects more, and has more of a Calicchio classic "sizzle" sound than the LA horns of the 90s. So I wouldn't necessarily discount them just yet. You might be able to buy the bell and pipe from John Duda at Calicchio (who works in the same building as Marcinkiewicz Co.), and send them to Fred Powell and have him figure out a valve casing that still retains the sound differences of that casing. |
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sunburstbasser Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1194
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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I have a hybrid Hollywood/Tulsa 1s/2. My valve casing was originally made in Hollywood, but it got new valves at Tulsa. I've personally never had an issue. It does have stiff springs in it, stiffer than my Kanstuls by a wide margin.
Contact John and send the horn in.
I've never noticed my valves to be noisy. _________________ Kanstul 1600
Kanstul 1510
Calicchio 1s/2
Selmer 24B Lightweight K-Mod |
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2LIP Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2003 Posts: 134 Location: Burbs between Milwaukee and Chicago
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject: 1s/2 Valves |
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First let me tell you how much the Calicchio works. I use this horn for rock, blues, ska/reggae, studio work (it tracks GREAT), big band jazz and some small combo stuff. I do have another horn that I prefer for intimate settings and church gigs. This horn is built for recording. I've tried a bunch of other horns and haven't found one that records as well. Many trumpet players have played Calicchio at some point in their career because they are that good.
The valves on them are just inconsistent! I've tried/played 4 different Calicchio horns and owned 2 of them. I had a 1sZ/2 with good valves. They were the best of all the Calicchios I've played and were still not as good as the Schilkes and Getzens, which I think are the best in the biz. My Kanstul valves took 5 years of tinkering to get right. Part of that was build quality and that's another story for another day. Needless to say, they play great now.
I currently own a Tulsa made 75th Anniversary 1s/2rM which I absolutely love. EXCEPT FOR THE VALVES!!! When I got the horn, it needed some tweaking so I took it to Charlie Melk and he did his magic to quiet them down some. The second valve is still as good as he got it. The first valve was ok for a while, but is so loud that I can no longer use the horn in the studio and it's difficult to use in live situations where I'm mic'd up which is 90% of my playing. It's almost usable when I'm on a cabled mic, but if using my wireless, you hear that 1st valve clinking through the monitors and mains. Frustrating!!!!
I've called and exchanged e mails with John Duda. I called again today and found out he's nursing an injury so has been somewhat 'out of commission'. Bottom line is - this is one of the best sounding horns I've ever owned, but I can't stand the valve issues and lack attention to quality details (valves) when this horn was put together. It never should have left the shop with quality issues because to get something fixed or reworked later is a PITA and costly in time and money.
If I can't get this resolved soon, I'll be ordering a Jupiter XO because I know their quality is better and they're trying to build a market!
Good luck with the valve issue you're having. No slam on Calicchio, but just know that their valves are very inconsistent. At least based on the 4 different ones that I've had experience with. 1sZ/2, 1s/2rM, DT S1s/3rM, 1s/7.
That being said, I've not experienced anything like this with the Getzens, Schilkes, Lawler, or Yamaha that I've owned. My Kanstuls were a PITA to get working right, but once I tweaked them, they've performed as well as any. Never had a failure with them.
Again, good luck with your 'Clickio'. |
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pfeifela Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2006 Posts: 1280 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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My Calicchio valves are the loudest and most obnoxious I've ever owned. Thankfully, I do no have the sticking problem. I just can't believe the clunking feeling and outright noise they produce. With that said, the horn (1sZ/3rL) sounds awesome. Not sorry I have it! But if the valves stuck I'd get rid of it....just can't go there for ANY sound. Also, the throw on my Calicchio valves feels a little longer....or maybe it's just the noise that makes them seem that way.
You can press the valves on my Getzen at angle with a board. By the way, I virtually never even oil the darn thing.
CHADWICK: I live a few miles from 'Cink/Calicchio and I'm planning to go over there on Friday. I'll print out your problem and take it with me to show someone in person. I'll PM you with whatever advice or direction they may have....I bought my Calicchio second hand and am hoping to show them my own clunky/noise problem ....... _________________ Larry Pfeifer |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1866 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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I did my own valve alignment on a Calicchio using rubber type "felts". After the valves were aligned, the click clank got worse. After taking many measurements, numerous cleanings, and experimentation, I determined the source of the click was the piston contacting the brass valve guide thousands of an inch before the "felt" stopped the valve travel on the up stroke.
By lightly filing the bottom of the brass valve guides, the problem was completely resolved. That horn has smooth, reliable, and quiet valve action now. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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pfeifela Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2006 Posts: 1280 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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ldwoods wrote: | I did my own valve alignment on a Calicchio using rubber type "felts". After the valves were aligned, the click clank got worse. After taking many measurements, numerous cleanings, and experimentation, I determined the source of the click was the piston contacting the brass valve guide thousands of an inch before the "felt" stopped the valve travel on the up stroke.
By lightly filing the bottom of the brass valve guides, the problem was completely resolved. That horn has smooth, reliable, and quiet valve action now. |
I admire your skills. But I wouldn't dare touch a horn with a file. That has disaster written all over it for me!
I can press the 'ol valves straight down, though. Yessiree, I'm a machine in that regard........ _________________ Larry Pfeifer |
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Chadwick Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 150 Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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pfeifela wrote: |
CHADWICK: I live a few miles from 'Cink/Calicchio and I'm planning to go over there on Friday. I'll print out your problem and take it with me to show someone in person. I'll PM you with whatever advice or direction they may have....I bought my Calicchio second hand and am hoping to show them my own clunky/noise problem ....... |
Sweet that would be amazing. Ill give John a call about it when he recovers, but if you find any information from them, definitely post it.
I'll call some of the makers around, and let you know what comes of this when I have time to take it to a horn repair guy.
Thank you all!
CMH |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Standard Dirty Valve Cleaning......Simply green or Castrol Super Clean spray into the bores brush well repeat andl it it sit. Fill tub with warm water and use a cup of Super Clean in the tube. Takehorn apart and soak in tub snake and brush everything that needs it then soak. The pistons take them apart so your felts and corks do not get wet. Pour either simple green or Castrol super clean into a glass so that the pistons can soak. Before doing that wash any surface oil off with some simple hand soap or dish soap and rinse with water before putting in the strong stuff to soak. Now go back to the horn scrub those bores out well. Now use the micro fiber clothes to clean them out soak and repeat until the bores come out clean. After about 30 minutes of the pistons soaking remove them and clean them under warm running water. Dry them off place them in a glass of regular white vinagar for a 15 minute soak then rinse. Dray everything off do not oil the pistons or the bore until everything is dry.
This is as clean as you can get with out using something like a strong acid bath or sonic cleaner. Oil should not be an issue unless the clearances have opened up due to wear. More then likely you piston bores and the pistons are so dirty that the oil can not do it's job it just runs off and forms a puddle at the bottom of the case.
Now would be a good time time to Try Ultra Pure or Binak 5 Star or even Bach/Selmer Red Valve Oil if they still make it??? TO me it looks Orange but I think it says Red on the label.
If that does not do it then your problemis that the pistons have been side loaded so long they pistons or in this case the bore is out of round and not allowing the piston to travel freely up and down it is getting caught on the side.
If yu still find youre having issues after the super cleaning then maybe the White Lithium Grease Trick will save you but if it does I would start saving up for a valve job at ANderson's $360 last time I checked and they would be done in nickel silver on top of the monel so they would feel much better then OEM New. I would try to learn to play properly too like you are holding a baseball stop the side loading!!! _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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ALso do not worry about the sound of guides that metal if that is all it is?? No one in then audience will ever hear the clic clic my Mercedes had metal guides made a heck of racket but now one ever told me they could hear or complained not a single band director.I think the type that carry on about that are types that would fit in on Jerry Springer because if their life does not have some drama in it they will find a way to create some! The noise from metal guides is total Jerry Springer drama does not matter will not be heard by anyone else that matter!
If a piston is doing that then the valve guide isnot doing it's job or the oil is not doing it's job assuming wear is uniform on the piston and inside the bore. Piston with that much slop from side to side would in my book not be fitting the bore properly and either the piston or the bore needs fixing.
I have seen a Getzen piston assembly have that same propblem but since it was not from the current owners take over the name it did not matter. SO good work on the diagnosis it is tricky to figure things like that out so good work! _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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mpo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Apr 2008 Posts: 577
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Capt.Kirk wrote: | ALso do not worry about the sound of guides that metal if that is all it is?? No one in then audience will ever hear the clic clic my Mercedes had metal guides made a heck of racket but now one ever told me they could hear or complained not a single band director. |
Ever tried to record with clunky valves Kirk? I doubt it. |
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