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JayKosta
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 Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Perks of playing without teacher |
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Back to the original question -
| stuartissimo wrote: | | ... Would it be a useful experience for trumpeters in general to deliberately spend at least some period in their life (say, a year) without any guidance at all? Or is trumpet playing an activity that really cannot be done without proper guidance? ... |
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Useful experience ? - probably not, without 'any guidance' the time would likely be spent 'wandering around'.
Playing needing guidance ? - no, many people seem happy 'doing their thing' without any guidance.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Perks of playing without teacher |
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| JayKosta wrote: | Back to the original question -
| stuartissimo wrote: | | ... Would it be a useful experience for trumpeters in general to deliberately spend at least some period in their life (say, a year) without any guidance at all? Or is trumpet playing an activity that really cannot be done without proper guidance? ... |
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Useful experience ? - probably not, without 'any guidance' the time would likely be spent 'wandering around'.
Playing needing guidance ? - no, many people seem happy 'doing their thing' without any guidance. |
+1.
Brad
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Billy B
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Depends on what you mean by guidance. Youtubes and Trumpet Herald will get you little progress.
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Steve A
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:00 am Post subject: |
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I've been thinking about this over the last few days. For what it's worth, here's my take on this: if you're hugely lucky with your first teacher being great and a perfect fit for you, and any subsequent teachers being equally perfect for that stage of your musical life, it's probably possible that you could basically get everything you need to meet all your goals purely by following instructions.
However, I think that's probably pretty unusual, and that most teachers are good at teaching some part of the overall musical progression, but less so for others. For instance, I think a lot of the teachers that are most sought out in university music programs (the famous artists who draw ambitious students to the school) are probably really good at teaching the last few steps a promising student needs to win a big job, and if what they're best at offering happens to be what the student needs at that stage, it's a perfect fit. (And they have a continuous stream of high-profile successes, because we see the spectacular success of the students who need and get the last few steps filled in, then leave and do great things, which is taken as proof of the effectiveness of the teaching of this particular studio. And, it does prove some very valuable things about the studio, without a doubt.)
However, if the student has some serious fundamental issues that need fixing first, it's going to be a hit and miss situation, because a lot of those teachers were already standout players by the time they were teenagers. Realistically speaking, they probably passed very quickly and relatively smoothly through those fundamental stages, and don't really remember much about it, so they aren't well-equipped to recognize what others need to make these steps, and don't have much to say about it. I'll never forget playing in a masterclass for a big name person whose playing I admire at a time that I was really struggling with some fundamental problems. I was very excited for the opportunity to play for this person, and worked very hard getting ready. In the masterclass, I obviously struggled with the sound production issues I was having, and it was an immensely frustrating experience that the advice the artist had to offer basically amounted to, "well, I find it's better to be awesome when you play this, so maybe you should try being awesome like me?"
If you're not one of the people who land in just the right places at just the right times, and manage to do your part to make things happen after those strokes of luck, then there are probably going to be some things you need to figure out on your own. If your teacher isn't the right one for what you need, you're probably not going to get what you need by just doing what they suggest and repeating faithfully and waiting for the the dream to come to you. In that case, learning some self-reliance, and taking responsibility for fixing your problems yourself rather than waiting for someone else to tell you how to do it would be critical.
However, even then, it's probably better to invest the effort in finding a teacher who's a better fit than dedicating long periods of time to exploring on your own, especially if you don't have a very clear idea of what you need, and where to look for it. You can waste a lot of time and heartache with nothing to show for it, other than a renewed appreciation of how difficult this thing can be. |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | I've been thinking about this over the last few days. For what it's worth, here's my take on this: if you're hugely lucky with your first teacher being great and a perfect fit for you, and any subsequent teachers being equally perfect for that stage of your musical life, it's probably possible that you could basically get everything you need to meet all your goals purely by following instructions.
However, I think that's probably pretty unusual, and that most teachers are good at teaching some part of the overall musical progression, but less so for others. For instance, I think a lot of the teachers that are most sought out in university music programs (the famous artists who draw ambitious students to the school) are probably really good at teaching the last few steps a promising student needs to win a big job, and if what they're best at offering happens to be what the student needs at that stage, it's a perfect fit. (And they have a continuous stream of high-profile successes, because we see the spectacular success of the students who need and get the last few steps filled in, then leave and do great things, which is taken as proof of the effectiveness of the teaching of this particular studio. And, it does prove some very valuable things about the studio, without a doubt.)
However, if the student has some serious fundamental issues that need fixing first, it's going to be a hit and miss situation, because a lot of those teachers were already standout players by the time they were teenagers. Realistically speaking, they probably passed very quickly and relatively smoothly through those fundamental stages, and don't really remember much about it, so they aren't well-equipped to recognize what others need to make these steps, and don't have much to say about it. I'll never forget playing in a masterclass for a big name person whose playing I admire at a time that I was really struggling with some fundamental problems. I was very excited for the opportunity to play for this person, and worked very hard getting ready. In the masterclass, I obviously struggled with the sound production issues I was having, and it was an immensely frustrating experience that the advice the artist had to offer basically amounted to, "well, I find it's better to be awesome when you play this, so maybe you should try being awesome like me?"
If you're not one of the people who land in just the right places at just the right times, and manage to do your part to make things happen after those strokes of luck, then there are probably going to be some things you need to figure out on your own. If your teacher isn't the right one for what you need, you're probably not going to get what you need by just doing what they suggest and repeating faithfully and waiting for the the dream to come to you. In that case, learning some self-reliance, and taking responsibility for fixing your problems yourself rather than waiting for someone else to tell you how to do it would be critical.
However, even then, it's probably better to invest the effort in finding a teacher who's a better fit than dedicating long periods of time to exploring on your own, especially if you don't have a very clear idea of what you need, and where to look for it. You can waste a lot of time and heartache with nothing to show for it, other than a renewed appreciation of how difficult this thing can be. |
I have taught beginning through professional. If the student practices what and how I show them they never fail.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | | ... I'll never forget playing in a masterclass for a big name person whose playing I admire at a time that I was really struggling with some fundamental problems. I was very excited for the opportunity to play for this person, and worked very hard getting ready. In the masterclass, I obviously struggled with the sound production issues I was having, and it was an immensely frustrating experience that the advice the artist had to offer basically amounted to, "well, I find it's better to be awesome when you play this, so maybe you should try being awesome like me?" ... |
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Some thoughts about masterclasses - it's important to remember that the masterclass setting is for a short duration, and it usually isn't possible to do long-term development, or 'try this, come back next week'.
From attending masterclasses for various instruments, the key item that 'good MC teachers' have is the ability to quickly 'size up' the player and to identify a primary item to address.
And a critical part of choosing the proper item is that it has to have several attributes -
1) Noticeably better playing can result from the change.
2) The item to be changed must be easily described and understood.
3) The player must be ABLE to make the change.
4) The player needs to be able to begin execution of the change during the MC.
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A good long-term teacher can work in a similar manner - but has the benefit of being able to do step-by-step improving.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Steve A
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Joined: 26 May 2006
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | Steve A wrote: | | ... I'll never forget playing in a masterclass for a big name person whose playing I admire at a time that I was really struggling with some fundamental problems. I was very excited for the opportunity to play for this person, and worked very hard getting ready. In the masterclass, I obviously struggled with the sound production issues I was having, and it was an immensely frustrating experience that the advice the artist had to offer basically amounted to, "well, I find it's better to be awesome when you play this, so maybe you should try being awesome like me?" ... |
-----------------------------
Some thoughts about masterclasses - it's important to remember that the masterclass setting is for a short duration, and it usually isn't possible to do long-term development, or 'try this, come back next week'.
From attending masterclasses for various instruments, the key item that 'good MC teachers' have is the ability to quickly 'size up' the player and to identify a primary item to address.
And a critical part of choosing the proper item is that it has to have several attributes -
1) Noticeably better playing can result from the change.
2) The item to be changed must be easily described and understood.
3) The player must be ABLE to make the change.
4) The player needs to be able to begin execution of the change during the MC.
------------------
A good long-term teacher can work in a similar manner - but has the benefit of being able to do step-by-step improving. |
Yes, naturally I thought of this afterwards, and I think there's a fair question to be asked as to what is or is not realistic to aim to do in a masterclass. Comparing this particular one to other masterclasses where different clinicians have addressed fundamental issues in variously successful or unsuccessful ways, I've seen others manage to accomplish much, much more in the same circumstances, so I'm standing by my assessment that this particular clinician was a disappointment.
It would probably have been different if I had needed input on how to play particular orchestral excerpts in a way that was likely to lead to better audition results, rather than baseline improvements to weaknesses in my playing. This is really my point - there are some people who are sensational players and also are great at helping almost any student make big improvements, but there are also a lot who are amazing players, and are good at teaching how to get from step 199 to step 200 on the path to excellence, but don't have much that's useful to say about steps 1-198. |
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Steve A
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: |
I have taught beginning through professional. If the student practices what and how I show them they never fail. |
I don't mean to dispute the truth or falseness of this, given that we've never met, and I don't know any of your students, and I know Mr. Adam's methods have been very successful for many people, but I suspect you agree with me that there are gifts that go into good teaching that are not necessarily present to the required degree in many famous players, and that those teachers are very helpful for some, but not all. |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | | Billy B wrote: |
I have taught beginning through professional. If the student practices what and how I show them they never fail. |
I don't mean to dispute the truth or falseness of this, given that we've never met, and I don't know any of your students, and I know Mr. Adam's methods have been very successful for many people, but I suspect you agree with me that there are gifts that go into good teaching that are not necessarily present to the required degree in many famous players, and that those teachers are very helpful for some, but not all. |
Being a great player or possessing degrees has little to do with ability to teach.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how we got on this. I'm not going to go back and check, but regarding workshops, the great value to me was that you usually got enough stuff to work on for the next year and you got some great ideas from some of your fellow students. (We're skipping the summer romances, right?)
I'm sure where you went and who you studied with makes a difference. I went to workshops with primary faculty members, i.e. no graduate assistant level teachers, but they don't have to be. Your faculty should represent where you are at the time.
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"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Depends on what you mean by guidance. Youtubes and Trumpet Herald will get you little progress. |
It's doable if you're able to distill the useful information and discard everything overhyped, narcissistic and dogmatic. Which, I'll admit, is a lot of it.
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Billy B
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | Depends on what you mean by guidance. Youtubes and Trumpet Herald will get you little progress. |
It's doable if you're able to distill the useful information and discard everything overhyped, narcissistic and dogmatic. Which, I'll admit, is a lot of it. |
Useful information? How many are qualified to make that judgement? If they were, they wouldn't be seeking internet guidance.
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Useful information? How many are qualified to make that judgement? If they were, they wouldn't be seeking internet guidance. |
In my experience most people are adequately qualified to determine what is useful to them.
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | Useful information? How many are qualified to make that judgement? If they were, they wouldn't be seeking internet guidance. |
In my experience most people are adequately qualified to determine what is useful to them. |
Good luck to you! I certainly wasn't smart or talented enough to meet many of my goals without years of regular instruction.
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:54 am Post subject: |
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My best teacher said "I'm giving you the tools to be your own teacher." Any time I start to struggle I go back to the few simple things he taught me.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
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trickg
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | My best teacher said "I'm giving you the tools to be your own teacher." Any time I start to struggle I go back to the few simple things he taught me. |
I think that there's a lot of wisdom in that - any time I start to have chops issues, I can track it down to a couple of bad habits that I've allowed to creep in, (chiefly using too much pressure) and I have the knowledge to do a reset to get things back on track.
However, I do think there's value in getting another opinion, and that's sometimes hard for us to do.
A friend of mine graduated from Peabody conservatory and is a wonderful player, but he still goes back to a mentor of his, Rene Hernandez with the Baltimore Symphony, for a reality check. He'll go back and take a handful of lessons every year or so, just to keep things moving forward so that he doesn't stagnate. Rene also indicated in a clinic he did with us (National Guard band) that he's not above getting a reality check from other players/teachers as well.
We're never too old or good to get another perspective.
On different but related subject, I'm looking to try to market myself for voiceover work. The guy I'm working with has said that I have a good voice with good resonance and I have good diction, but we're focusing on interpreting scripts so that I have the proper feel and inflection for what's being read.
This is tough for me - I really really dislike taking any kind of criticism, but I know that if I want to get going doing this, I need to do it right, and I know that I can get there much more quickly if I allow myself to be critiqued, judged, graded, and shaped.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the internet. It's noisy. I've been watching some videos of Wayne Bargeron and K.O. Skinsnes (Stomvi). Very interesting stuff. I think valuable information is out there, it's just that you have to have the maturity to process it well.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Regarding the internet. It's noisy. I've been watching some videos of Wayne Bargeron and K.O. Skinsnes (Stomvi). Very interesting stuff. I think valuable information is out there, it's just that you have to have the maturity to process it well. |
+1 on that. You have to be able to filter out all the b.s. on the internet >coughtrumpetsizzlecough< and choose wisely, with strong emphasis on pros who have been out there in the real world.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | Good luck to you! I certainly wasn't smart or talented enough to meet many of my goals without years of regular instruction. |
Thank you. I don’t feel particularly smart or talented though…rather I’d say I was never talented or smart enough to turn my teacher’s instructions into practice.
I’d like to get a teacher again, but I feel reluctant about it. People often tend to misinterpret my reservations as arrogance or stubborness, when in actuality it’s mostly inability. Since I’m still making progress on my own, I’m anxious about messing it up by getting a teacher just for the sake it. For example, there’s a local teacher that I’d love to get lessons from…but he’s adamant about starting every practice with breathing exercises. How would I go about telling him I get anxiety attacks from those, and would he be able to teach if I force him to deviate from his teaching approach? In fact, I’ve so far opted not to contact the guy at all…better to just muck about by myself for now and not burden the world with my idiosyncracies…
Masterclasses do seem like a good alternative to me at this point, given the lack of long term obligations. If I really mess things up again, at least it’ll be a one-time thing. The advice everyone gives about getting an outside opinion is a good one, I should seek it out…just not quite sure what would be the best way to go about it.
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1955 Olds Super cornet
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:05 am Post subject: |
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Stuartissimo!
Reading your posts I get the idea that the main issue for you is the fear of not being able to establish a good relation to a potential teacher; i.e. you write that a certain teacher would want you to start breathing exercices which might give rise to anxiety.
I might be completely wrong in this;However - there are persons out there that make me just furious when they tell me, or other folks in the bands "why don´t you just listen"; "you must feel the rhythm"; "look at you sheet, it clearly says pianissimo so why don´t you play pianissimo" - with an attitude that conveys, between the lines "you son of a b-ch, can´t you read...you ignorant xxx".and so forth.
Maybe I´m allergic of being told this or that? The guy I am aiming at is a friend of mine since 60 years, I know his motives and ideas are good, but his way of delivering them.....arghh!
But with the one teacher I finally got I was, no, we were able to establish a fine rapport.
He had a very sensitive way of delivering his views, often in a humorous way - and his main theme was: BREATH BREATH BREATH!
Not that he gave me breathing practices but he observed that I often stalled that streaming river of air. I met him 2014-15. Began playing 1957. He had me playing this or that, while watching me closely and pointed out that - breath.....
I would like to suggest to you that you should tell a potential teacher that which irritates you, what makes you clam up, which are your fears etc etc. If this guy does not receive this in a good manner - then for the next one!!
Good luck!
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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