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ProAm
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 Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:26 am Post subject: Re: well |
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With all due respect, especially since you have way more experience than I, this statement:
| mcgovnor wrote: | | ... natural attributes have absolutely nothing to do with playing in the altissimo range. |
is contradicted by your next statement:
| mcgovnor wrote: | | Some can play up there easier then others without practicing up there too much or laboring over it. |
If some can "play up there easier than others" then natural ability must be involved.
I personally believe that since only a small percentage of trumpet players will ever play successfully above high C natural ability must be involved. Perhaps all can learn with the proper instruction ... that's hard to say since there seems to be a dearth of proper instructors.
For me, if I could obtain a reliable concert F above high C, I could die satisfied. |
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EdMann
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Lynn's method is but one of many. In my experience, the action is almost pure coordination coupled with practice of that coordination. The practice brings about muscle strength, flexibility and muscle memory. As more than one pro has told me, you can get it early on naturally or "adjustments" need to be made along the way. Two great pros I know of, Roger Ingram and Jens Lindemann have called it a "knack" that can be developed, but one has to work / practice in a proper manner to find it. Loud pounding like most kids do will result in the just the opposite.
Look for common elements in many of the methods out there: soft playing, flex exercises, tongue placement, air compression. If you think it's hard, then it's hard. Once I got a modicum of what that knack is, the range popped right up along with the sound I wanted and the endurance I was looking for. Still work in progress...
ed |
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ProAm
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: Re: well |
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| butxifxnot wrote: | | It's not a natural ability that makes "naturally high chops", it's a chance encounter with correct technique. Most people aren't lucky enough to have a "Whoops! I accidentally know how to play high!" experience and must learn it. |
I'm not trying to start a vociferous argument, but I don't get the distinction here. What's the difference between "chance encounter" and "natural ability"?
To me these are one and the same. The fact that there are MANY (most??) who play with a great sound and technical ability up to, say, top line G but then degrade and top out at high C tells me that there is a "natural" tendency to either approach the upper register incorrectly or to lack the "natural" ability to play in that register. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Two great pros I know of, Roger Ingram and Jens Lindemann have called it a "knack" that can be developed, but one has to work / practice in a proper manner to find it. |
Excuse me, but that's what Claude Gordon wrote in his books. They are quoting him.
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EdMann
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | Quote: | | Two great pros I know of, Roger Ingram and Jens Lindemann have called it a "knack" that can be developed, but one has to work / practice in a proper manner to find it. |
Excuse me, but that's what Claude Gordon wrote in his books. They are quoting him. |
Claude's mantra was along the lines of proper execution of his plan and high range is inevitable. I'm not aware of his use of the word "knack," but correct me if I'm wrong. Frankly I've found the whole search for the elusive double this or that rather silly, and virtually no one but other trpt players so much as care about it (with the exception of Harry Connick, Jr.). Regardless, the experience of discovering various methods and their corrolaries is a facinating exploration into the psyche of the trpt mind, for better or worse, but most often divergent from musical prowess and development.
Ed |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:50 am Post subject: |
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CG refers to the "knack" of the high register in "BPINHT Deep Breathing", as well as the lectures on Purtle's website. I have heard it from his students enough to know it was also part of his "mantra". Maybe Mohan will chime in.
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jtauletta
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I think I used to say "it's not the wand but the magician"let's face it. I know guys who can play high and have no other skills at all on the trumpet so you have to say they have the combination of skills or natural ability to just to play high , I promise you could not have taught them to play high. They couldn't be taught to even read music! On the other side I have been friends with unbelievable players that could do it all except play above a high E and would have done anything to play a high G . If you are not a true natural high player and in rare instances a technical high player like Maynard , bud brisbois, chase and many more current players that I won't name . But if you are not one of them,you have to bust your butt and overcome any natural shortcoming to make it work. and even then you need the physical ability or it just won't happen! Same with some guys that have ears that won't quit and can play changes all day can't teach them it's just natural. Then the next less talented has to learn scales for 20 years to get it right , the best are he ones that have both Natural ability and practice their arse off! Good Day
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butxifxnot
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: Re: well |
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| ProAm wrote: | | butxifxnot wrote: | | It's not a natural ability that makes "naturally high chops", it's a chance encounter with correct technique. Most people aren't lucky enough to have a "Whoops! I accidentally know how to play high!" experience and must learn it. |
I'm not trying to start a vociferous argument, but I don't get the distinction here. What's the difference between "chance encounter" and "natural ability"?
To me these are one and the same. The fact that there are MANY (most??) who play with a great sound and technical ability up to, say, top line G but then degrade and top out at high C tells me that there is a "natural" tendency to either approach the upper register incorrectly or to lack the "natural" ability to play in that register. |
IMO, here is the distinction, and it is very important.
If you say someone's ability is "natural technique", that automatically implies that those who GAIN the ability through instruction have "ARTIFICIAL technique" or "contrived technique". Just because it is more COMMON for people to do it wrong doesn't mean it is a gift for those who do it right. Face it: there are far more ways of doing things wrong than right. That doesn't mean it takes special talent to get it right, it just takes proper instruction and habit development.
In truth, it is all either correct or incorrect in degrees. What some people call "talent" is actually a student who HAPPENED to do it correctly the first time. Everyone else simply must be taught what the lucky students stumbled onto faster.
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EdMann
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:10 am Post subject: |
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My favorite analogy:
In approaching a steeper hill, a skiier must actually lean forward down the hill find his balance, using his skiis and knees as resistance against gravity. Our "natural" tendency it to lean back when going down a hill causing us to use our ass. The natural tendency for most players is to tighten up when faced with a high note when the way to deal with it is to think the opposite. Nothing has helped me more to be less of an ass.
Ed |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Annie wrote: | | I think wrong equipment is definitely part of it - if you're playing on something that is completely wrong for you, you'll struggle on everything. |
Yes, and I would add, for the majority who use "wrong equipment" it is a case of them trying to play too small, too restrictive mouthpieces and horns that causes them the trouble.
While of the players who do develop fantastic upper registers, some (very few) develop fantastic upper registers on small, shallow, tight mouthpieces (think Paul Cacia, Roger Ingram), some (very few) develop fantastic upper registers on huge, deep, open mouthpieces (think Claude Gordon and Uan Racey), most develop fantastic upper registers on middle sized, fairly open mouthpieces (think Arturo Sandoval, Charlie Davis, Conrad Gozzo, Doc Severinsen). Yet, we all know what the typical "I wanna play high notes" player goes out and buys: a tight, little shallow mouthpiece that more often than not ruins all of the player's range. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Concerning the original topic, as my teacher Claude Gordon often said, "High notes are inevitable. If you're practicing correctly they'll develop right along with the rest of the machine."
My personal experience, struggling for the first 8 years of my trumpet playing to successfully play anything above a High C, followed by developing a range to G above Double C by doing what Claude taught me to do has confirmed what Claude maintained.
Yes, some people get the "knack" or feel of it easier than others, and they also might be naturally endowed with the required levels of strength (Air Power strength, not "lip" or "embouchure" strength). But anybody, big or small, male or female can develop a range to at least Double C - if he or she practices correctly and sticks with it long enough for it to develop.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
http://mattgraves.netfirms.com/john_mohan.htm
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nothing has helped me more [than] to be less of an ass. |
My new motto! 
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veery715
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| EdMann wrote: | My favorite analogy:
In approaching a steeper hill, a skiier must actually lean forward down the hill find his balance, using his skiis and knees as resistance against gravity. Our "natural" tendency it to lean back when going down a hill causing us to use our ass. The natural tendency for most players is to tighten up when faced with a high note when the way to deal with it is to think the opposite. Nothing has helped me more to be less of an ass.
Ed |
Just as when an aircraft stalls, you must push the stick forward and fly it out of the stall. The natural tendency when lift is lost because of too steep an angle of attack is to pull back on the stick - this will kill you.
I think a really good term regarding technique like keeping your balance skiing downhill, flying out of a stall, and playing very high notes on the trumpet, is "counter-intuitive".
veery |
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INTJ
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| veery715 wrote: | | EdMann wrote: | My favorite analogy:
In approaching a steeper hill, a skiier must actually lean forward down the hill find his balance, using his skiis and knees as resistance against gravity. Our "natural" tendency it to lean back when going down a hill causing us to use our ass. The natural tendency for most players is to tighten up when faced with a high note when the way to deal with it is to think the opposite. Nothing has helped me more to be less of an ass.
Ed |
Just as when an aircraft stalls, you must push the stick forward and fly it out of the stall. The natural tendency when lift is lost because of too steep an angle of attack is to pull back on the stick - this will kill you.
I think a really good term regarding technique like keeping your balance skiing downhill, flying out of a stall, and playing very high notes on the trumpet, is "counter-intuitive".
veery |
Nah, the best way is to light the burners and power out of the stall........ 
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INTJ
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | Annie wrote: | | I think wrong equipment is definitely part of it - if you're playing on something that is completely wrong for you, you'll struggle on everything. |
Yes, and I would add, for the majority who use "wrong equipment" it is a case of them trying to play too small, too restrictive mouthpieces and horns that causes them the trouble.
While of the players who do develop fantastic upper registers, some (very few) develop fantastic upper registers on small, shallow, tight mouthpieces (think Paul Cacia, Roger Ingram), some (very few) develop fantastic upper registers on huge, deep, open mouthpieces (think Claude Gordon and Uan Racey), most develop fantastic upper registers on middle sized, fairly open mouthpieces (think Arturo Sandoval, Charlie Davis, Conrad Gozzo, Doc Severinsen). Yet, we all know what the typical "I wanna play high notes" player goes out and buys: a tight, little shallow mouthpiece that more often than not ruins all of the player's range. |
I was about to disagree, because being put on too large a mouthpiece killed my range above the staff 35 years ago, leading me to quit trumpet and become a USAF pilot for 24 years................ Hmmm.....maybe the big mouthpiece wasn't such a bad thing after all.......... 
Anyway, the range of diameters that seem to work best for me are in the Bach 3 to 7 size, and I'm learning that those are considered middle of the road sizes. Bad things happen to me when I go outside of that size range, though much worse things happen (can't play) on the smaller end than on the larger end (no endurance). I also suspect if I had enough time to practice, even a 1.5C size could work for me.
Currently I am around a 5E/7E with a tight backbore and a medium heavy, responsive, free blowing horn. Not sure that prescription fits anyone else, but it does me right now. Before I went this way I struggled to play a D in a gig, now I struggle with Gs.
So I guess I agree........not that my agreement is any kind of an endorsement........just evidence perhaps that I am finally "getting it."
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| One point that is usually bypassed is the tooth placement within each jaw (not the underbite/overbite, which is addressed a lot). There is a story about a trumpeter in 1930s who lost his fantastic range after straightening out his crooked tooth at the suggestion of the dentist. |
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jonalan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| EdMann wrote: | | If you think it's hard, then it's hard. |
My favorite line in this entire thread.
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Natural ability is very helpful for a beginner or somone who is starting to get excited about building high range.
If anyone studies with me and doesn't have great high range after a couple of years it is because they haven't followed through as instructed.
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TrentAustin
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veery715
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| TrentAustin wrote: | They're hard? No one ever told me that. They've always seemed the same to me.
I'm not trying to be cynical but this is how I think. A note's a note, be it a double C (pedal or high).
-T |
My teacher says the same thing - one note's like another. But, but, but, I guess my brain is getting in the way.
v |
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