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How many of you experience the following: |
Red Rot |
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15% |
[ 11 ] |
Finish Corrosion |
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25% |
[ 18 ] |
Both |
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29% |
[ 21 ] |
Neither |
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29% |
[ 21 ] |
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Total Votes : 71 |
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Message |
jon_norstog Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2012 Posts: 176 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Clean your horn! I tear down my Silver Sonic after playing, pull the slides (except #2, which is tight and iffy and I don't want to make it worse) valves and caps - I shake and blow them out, blow in the leadpipe and the pipes leading to the valves. I swab the valve bores and dry the valve bodies, then put the whole thing back to gether.
If I'm prac ticing at home I use the air blow fitting on my compressor.
Speaking of what goes in your mouth going into your horn - years ago I eBayed an "art deco" King Liberty. Seemed kind of stuffy, so I took it to an insturment guy for cleaning. He opened it up and took out what looked like half a can of snoose!
jn _________________ toot, toot! |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3670 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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jon_norstog wrote: | Clean your horn! I tear down my Silver Sonic after playing, pull the slides (except #2, which is tight and iffy and I don't want to make it worse) valves and caps - I shake and blow them out, blow in the leadpipe and the pipes leading to the valves. I swab the valve bores and dry the valve bodies, then put the whole thing back to gether.
If I'm prac ticing at home I use the air blow fitting on my compressor.
Speaking of what goes in your mouth going into your horn - years ago I eBayed an "art deco" King Liberty. Seemed kind of stuffy, so I took it to an insturment guy for cleaning. He opened it up and took out what looked like half a can of snoose!
jn |
Dude, you gotta take the second slide out or you're not cleaning the horn completely. Use grease and work the slides in one at a time when finished, and then work it with both slides. You'll be OK. |
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Michael Drapp Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 410 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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razeontherock wrote: | Watch it, now John's going to be Barefoot Bob and sell us all on coral calcium
I don't know how much truth there may be to the benefits of body pH level being base and not acidic, nor do I know if my hands have changed since eating through the lacquer of my (then) new Strad in what seemed to be record time. I use leather guards whether it's raw brass, silver, or gold. (I have all 3) I don't notice it changing playability or tone, although it does deaden the feel of the vibrations in my hands. (Might reduce player feedback a tad too?)
I've never developed red rot, but I did buy a horn with it intending to swap out the leadpipe, even though I expected it would take years before it became a hole. I don't like the idea of the innards of a horn being "modified" due to corrosion; I expect it won't be even, or musically advantageous.
Only in the past 3 years or so have I begun swabbing out my leadpipe and tuning slide, using Mr Wendt's excellent product. So I guess I'm the case scenario the OP was looking for? |
I read so much about red rot and external finish damage on the forum that I wanted to learn how large of a problem this is and what others are doing "that works" to prevent or slow down these processes. Personally, I have never had any red rot in my horns nor do I experience finish damage. I wipe down my horn after every session and I clean my leadpipe with a bore snake and some valve oil a couple of times a year. Sometimes, I flush out the slides with water and this is all I need to do. _________________ Michael R. Drapp,
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA |
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Michael Drapp Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 410 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I greatly appreciate all of your responses thus far but I would like to hear from more of you...please let me know about your experiences, thanks _________________ Michael R. Drapp,
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA |
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Microblitz Regular Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2012 Posts: 97 Location: 40 Minutes from StoneHenge SW England.
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: |
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I use those little sponges that you blow round the tubing to clean my Sev out.
I know they say that you shouldnt reuse them, but I do. The mix they use is isopropl alcohol which is the stuff that you used to use to clean tape heads with.
You cant buy that over the counter here, so I wash the sponges in a bag in the washing machine, then use an instrument safe disenfectant which is sold by the local shop here to fill the tub they came in with and use that.
Hey ok, I'm not a skinflint, but those things cost the equivalent of $12 by the time I get them here! That's almost the same price as a gallon of petrol or a packet of cigarettes! _________________ Chris.
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Olds Recording '68:Olds Mendez '52:Olds Mendez Cornet '52:Getzen Severinsen 74:Rudy MÜck 5M '58:Getzen Super Deluxe '58:Conn Wonder Cornet '14 |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: |
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You can't buy isopropyl rubbing alcohol? And I thought we had weird restrictions here in the States ... |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9389 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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razeontherock wrote: | You can't buy isopropyl rubbing alcohol? And I thought we had weird restrictions here in the States ... |
I'm gawking over the $12 gallon of gas and $12 pack of cigarettes... _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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MattC Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2009 Posts: 511
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Microblitz wrote: | I use those little sponges that you blow round the tubing to clean my Sev out.
I know they say that you shouldnt reuse them, but I do. The mix they use is isopropl alcohol which is the stuff that you used to use to clean tape heads with.
You cant buy that over the counter here, so I wash the sponges in a bag in the washing machine, then use an instrument safe disenfectant which is sold by the local shop here to fill the tub they came in with and use that.
Hey ok, I'm not a skinflint, but those things cost the equivalent of $12 by the time I get them here! That's almost the same price as a gallon of petrol or a packet of cigarettes! |
Your time is worth a ton, so you aren't a skinflint. But this method is "team cheapskate (c) approved"
By the way--I just noticed this past month that my Getzen Severinsen (slightly younger than yours) has rot in the leadpipe. My guess is that with care I can make this last, but it was a sad moment. |
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Microblitz Regular Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2012 Posts: 97 Location: 40 Minutes from StoneHenge SW England.
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Now red rot I something I have been thinking about.
When pipes crack here, the engineers fill the pipe under Pressure with a resin plastic which is forces into the cracks sealing then and bonding the material together. The plastic is like the gel coat you use for glass reinforced plastic.
Now im betting a similar process could be developed for repairing red rot holes instruments. All it takes is figuring out how to pressurise the tube and how to ensure that the right amount of gel is distributed. You want it to block the holes not coat the inside of the lead pipe.
There's the concept now get in the garage and figure out how to make it simple and cheap to do. And if you make any money out of the idea, I have a martin committee fund available.
Another Wacky© Idea from ... _________________ Chris.
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Olds Recording '68:Olds Mendez '52:Olds Mendez Cornet '52:Getzen Severinsen 74:Rudy MÜck 5M '58:Getzen Super Deluxe '58:Conn Wonder Cornet '14
Last edited by Microblitz on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:32 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Microblitz Regular Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2012 Posts: 97 Location: 40 Minutes from StoneHenge SW England.
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Oh and I was joking about the cigarettes and petrol . Its about its about £1.50 a litre and there are 4.6 litres to an English gallon. There are 1.6 dollars to £1.
That's (1.50x4.6) = 6.9 x 1.6 = $11.04 an English gallon.
A packet of 20 cigarettes are about $8.00 _________________ Chris.
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Olds Recording '68:Olds Mendez '52:Olds Mendez Cornet '52:Getzen Severinsen 74:Rudy MÜck 5M '58:Getzen Super Deluxe '58:Conn Wonder Cornet '14 |
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Microblitz Regular Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2012 Posts: 97 Location: 40 Minutes from StoneHenge SW England.
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:26 am Post subject: |
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opps... _________________ Chris.
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Olds Recording '68:Olds Mendez '52:Olds Mendez Cornet '52:Getzen Severinsen 74:Rudy MÜck 5M '58:Getzen Super Deluxe '58:Conn Wonder Cornet '14 |
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Interesting thread, found the first Conn leadpipe with red rot I've seen on a 80-A. This one is from 1958, which seems to be a transitional year and one of the reasons I got it was for a parts horn for another 1958 which has a twist in the leadpipe.
I have several others spanning 1923-1967 and this is the first. Has anyone else found a vintage Conn with this problem? Were there particular years or models that seem to have this problem?
For the techs, when the heavy acids are used in the manufacturing process are the horns then just rinsed or are they bathed in a base solution to neutralize them?
With no intention of flaming one manufacturer over another, I have avoided purchasing Yamahas made before about 1985, as acid bleed under the lacquer and in one case under the silver plate seems to be a problem on their student line trumpets, cornets, and trombones. Some of my old Conns from the 1960-1969 timeline seem to have issues as well, usually at the bell rim.
Vintage Benges and Martins seem to be more prone to red rot based on what I've read here and on TM but that may be more attributed to the care or lack of such given these instruments over time. Both are fine instruments and out of my price range due to their desirability. _________________ Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3670 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Microblitz wrote: | Now red rot I something I have been thinking about.
When pipes crack here, the engineers fill the pipe under Pressure with a resin plastic which is forces into the cracks sealing then and bonding the material together. The plastic is like the gel coat you use for glass reinforced plastic.
Now im betting a similar process could be developed for repairing red rot holes instruments. All it takes is figuring out how to pressurise the tube and how to ensure that the right amount of gel is distributed. You want it to block the holes not coat the inside of the lead pipe.
There's the concept now get in the garage and figure out how to make it simple and cheap to do. And if you make any money out of the idea, I have a martin committee fund available. :lol:
Another Wacky© Idea from ... |
I like the idea, but I don't think it will "stick, " so to speak, to the pipe.
The fatigued area can be cleaned, or patched on the outside if it's really bad, but nothing will stick to it, including plating, if it's a big enough area.
It's a rough copper spot, essentially. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /James R. New Studio backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6210
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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The polymer resin will stick by geometry (filling interconnected voids) if there is enough copper left. This is a great idea.
I wonder though, how is polymerization initiated - thermally, chemically, photochemically, radiochemically? |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:10 am Post subject: |
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I have a 1976 Getzen Severinsen with some red rot in the leadpipe just past the receiver, shows some marks in the silver outside.
After a thorough cleaning and drying I intend to fill the rot from the inside with a 2 part epoxy resin filled with brass to powder using an oven at 100 degrees C to properly cure.
I have used this method to build up worn low stress bearings with success in small machine tools and see no reason why it will not work in a leadpipe.
Regards, Stuart. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2359 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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plp wrote: | Interesting thread, found the first Conn leadpipe with red rot I've seen on a 80-A. This one is from 1958, which seems to be a transitional year and one of the reasons I got it was for a parts horn for another 1958 which has a twist in the leadpipe.
I have several others spanning 1923-1967 and this is the first. Has anyone else found a vintage Conn with this problem? Were there particular years or models that seem to have this problem? |
Red rot seems to be a problem with the sleeved leadpipes on the Vocabell cornets and trumpets. The leadpipe on my 48A was quite rotten, I've seen other Vocabells with pitted leadpipes, and I've heard of several more. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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Pinsel Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2012 Posts: 239 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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My trumpet finish turned green on the slide where I put my thumb and on the third valve. Maybe because I sweat a lot.
I read that you can clean this up with vinegar, but I am too lazy to do it and I am afraid that I will further damage the finish. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3670 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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stumac wrote: | I have a 1976 Getzen Severinsen with some red rot in the leadpipe just past the receiver, shows some marks in the silver outside.
After a thorough cleaning and drying I intend to fill the rot from the inside with a 2 part epoxy resin filled with brass to powder using an oven at 100 degrees C to properly cure.
I have used this method to build up worn low stress bearings with success in small machine tools and see no reason why it will not work in a leadpipe.
Regards, Stuart. |
Please let us know how this works, it's new one on me. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /James R. New Studio backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:20 am Post subject: |
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stumac wrote: | I have a 1976 Getzen Severinsen with some red rot in the leadpipe just past the receiver, shows some marks in the silver outside.
After a thorough cleaning and drying I intend to fill the rot from the inside with a 2 part epoxy resin filled with brass to powder using an oven at 100 degrees C to properly cure.
I have used this method to build up worn low stress bearings with success in small machine tools and see no reason why it will not work in a leadpipe.
Regards, Stuart. |
I have considered a process somewhat similar, but using a TIN alloy.
I have (and use) a very expensive set of French copper cookware ("Mauviel" brand). You may not be aware (unless you have similar) that the cooking surface ( where the food contacts ) is lined with tin; and it is normal through usage for the tin coating to wear through, eventually; at which point the utensils are sent out to be re-tinned. The shipping cost is much higher than the cost of the re-tinning ( these are very thick, heavy pots and pans).
IF the re-tinning companies could do this, the next step would be to hone smooth the inside of the mouthpipe.
I once found a supplier for these "mini-hones", but ... alas ... have misplaced. They are used in the automobile industry for honing brake cylinders ( I advocate replacing; NOT doing this. I am a former Porsche+Audi factory-trained tech).
Anyone here (@TH) know of a supplier of "mini-hones"? They have three "springy fingers", and come in various sizes for honing inside cylinders. The regular NAPA stores have brake-cylinder hones, but these are too large.
Probably, switching-out a mouthpipe with a replacement would be more cost-effective.
~ r2 ~ _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Robert,
I think you may be thinking of Flex Hones, a stiff bristle brush with a ball of abrasive on the end of the bristle.
My repairer has a selection of these for valve casings, trombone slides, tuning slides etc, just look for Flex Hones on ebay, they come in a range of sizes from 1/4" to several inches in diameter.
Regards, Stuart. |
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