PEDALS

DSR · Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:20 am Post subject:

Consider Bud Brisbois' playing type. In Reinhardt terms he was a Type IV upstream. Usptream players really solely on the low mouthpiece placement and hermetic seal to create the upward airstream. For a player to play pedals effectively he/she needs to have more top lip in the mouthpiece. So when Bud went to do these pedals he obviously started to drop his jaw and shift his mouthpiece up.

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2002-10-10 18:51 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:50 pm Post subject:

DS: For a player to play pedals effectively he/she needs to have more top lip in the mouthpiece.

CR: It seems to be very natural for many players to play pedals this way, especially the double pedals and especially when you first start practicing them.

DS: Upstream players cannot play with a middle or high placement and therefore Bud lost all his range.

CR: How does that relate to correctly practicing pedals?

DS: A lot of players are downstream so pedals are LESS harmless to them..

CR: "LESS harmless?" So if you're a downstream player pedals are more harmful than if you are an upstream player?

DS: ......but what about all the upstream players that will experience horiffic results?!?????

CR: So, you are saying that upstream players also are harmed by doing pedals? Horrific is a strong word. I have never seen anything but good come from practicing pedals correctly. Not even ONE bad experience. Again, the emphasis is on practicing correctly. I have no idea what "type" my setup is, but I definitely have less top lip than bottom lip, probably something along the line of 1/3 upper and 2/3 lower. When I practice pedals and get down below double pedal C, the mouthpiece ends up almost completely on my upper lip. If that's where Mother Nature wants it to go, that's where it goes. And my results have been very satisfactory as far as I'm concerned.

DSR · Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:47 pm Post subject:

Bugleboy,

You obviously have a developed set of chops and have accustomed yourself to shifting the mouthpiece up and down on your lips. The vast majority of players (perhaps with the exception of type IIIAs...a very high placement) are incapable of playing pedals without using two embouchures...multiple embouchure formations may be the result. When we play we want one spot on the lips where the mouthpiece rests...no drifting. When one plays pedal tones the mouthpiece loses it's four legs or firm foundation on the teeth. The embouchure is too flabby, too rolled out, and not enough mouthpiece pressure is used to stabilize the embouchure formation. This can lead to tonguing problems. Doc Reinhardt could always tell when a new student of his was using pedal tones just by the way they were tonguing. Another problem as I mentioned above, is the dropping of the jaw to achieve low tones, another error which destroys high range. Sure, pedals tones may be a way of eliminating throat tension and learning to move air. However there are far better ways of achieving a relaxed throat than trying something potentially destructive to an embouchure formation.

BB: "LESS harmless?" So if you're a downstream player pedals are more harmful than if you are an upstream player?

DS: Sorry...a bad way of putting it. Since downstream players (and in particular the higher IIIB and IIIA placements) utilize more top lip in the mouthpiece, they are closer to the so called "pedal embouchure". A IIIA or IIIB may not have to shift the position of the mouthpiece on their lips to play pedals. However, they'll still lose their all-essential embouchure firmness and may drop the jaw. Upstream players on the other hand (IA, II, IIA, IV, IVA) have very low placements and are far away from the pedal emchochure. A "shift" is necessary in order to play in the pedal register. This is very detrimental. If an upstream player loses his or her low placement over time, they have basically lost all of there playing capabilities.

I noticed that you are putting an emphasis on practicing pedals the "correct" way. This raises some questions in my mind. Is any way of practicing pedals correct? How does a trumpet student know how to practice these "correctly" without proper instruction and knowledge of the his or her type? Could it be that the majority of teachers that are strong advocates of pedal practice are higher placement downstreams? (A lot of players are IIIBs!) Do these teachers recognize that pedals can be quite detrimental to upstream players? (namely Bud Brisbois). Do these teachers recognize that THEY may have had the gift of being able to practice pedals without upsetting their embouchure and that their students may not have the same embouchure coordination to derive even minimal benefit? Are there not far better and less potentially harmless ways of accomplishing what pedals supposedly accomplish?

I won't ignore that fact that pedals have assisted and been of small help to many players. I also won't ignore the fact that they may do more damage than good.

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2002-10-10 18:52 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Dsr on 2002-10-10 18:55 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:38 pm Post subject:

DS: When we play we want one spot on the lips where the mouthpiece rests...no drifting

CR: I agree

DS: When one plays pedal tones the mouthpiece loses it's four legs or firm foundation on the teeth. The embouchure is too flabby, too rolled out, and not enough mouthpiece pressure is used to stabilize the embouchure formation. This can lead to tonguing problems.

CR: I assume you mean tonguing problems in the normal range. That has never been the case with me or anyone that I know of who has practiced pedals correctly. Actually, I can double tongue double pedals but it is of no use to me. But my tonguing in the normal register works pretty good.

DS: Another problem as I mentioned above, is the dropping of the jaw to achieve low tones, another error which destroys high range.

CR: I'm not sure if I drop my jaw when I play pedals. I may. If I do it definitely has never caused a problem for my high range or anyone that I know of who has practiced pedals in the same manner that I do. In fact just the opposite occurs. High range becomes easier.

DS: I noticed that you are putting an emphasis on practicing pedals the "correct" way. This raises some questions in my mind. Is any way of practicing pedals correct?

CR: Yes. And conversely there are ways to practice pedals incorrectly.

DS: How does a trumpet student know how to practice these "correctly" without proper instruction and knowledge of the his or her type?

CR: What do you mean "type."

DS: Could it be that the majority of teachers that are strong advocates of pedal practice are higher placement downstreams? ............. Do these teachers recognize that pedals can be quite detrimental to upstream players?

CR: I think it is totally irrelevant whether you are an upstream or a downstream player. And it is irrelevant where the mouthpiece sits on your lips. Done correctly, it is my experience that pedals help everyone to play higher, play longer and sound better.

DS: ......... namely Bud Brisbois

CR: My guess is that Bud didn't practice pedals correctly.

DS: Are there not far better and less potentially harmless ways of accomplishing what pedals supposedly accomplish?

CR: DSR, you have a funny way of saying things. "Less harmless" means "more harmful" but I don't think that is what you're trying to say in this sentence, But if I rewrite it as,

"Are there not far better and less potentially harmful ways of accomplishing what pedals supposedly accomplish?"

my answer would be,

I don't know of any embouchure tool more powerful than pedals for building chops, but because they are so powerful they need to be practiced correctly.

DS: I won't ignore that fact that pedals have assisted and been of small help to many players. I also won't ignore the fact that they may do more damage than good.

CR: I think you are misinformed on both counts.

In my experience, pedals have been an enormous help to many players.

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-10-12 00:12 ]

DSR · Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:25 pm Post subject:

Bugleboy,

Thank you for correcting my improper use of the English language. I think it is clear that we both have our own opinions and neither of us are going to change them. I'm not going to argue any longer. If you find that pedal tones further your development as trumpet player, that is wonderful...I wish you fruitful practice with them. As a Reinhardt advocate I avoid them.

Cheers,

-Brendan

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2002-10-10 22:25 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 9:29 pm Post subject:

Brendan,

I'm sorry that you feel you must disengage from this discussion. Also, I'm sorry that you characterize my position on pedals as opinion. I have seen what the correct practice of pedals can do for so many players who have just been totally unable to make the horn work for them any other way. Pedals are THE most powerful single tool for training/teaching embouchure. And when applied correctly, they work for EVERYONE, regardless of tooth formation, oral cavity, direction of air stream or lip size. It's a shame that you would deny yourself the resource of this important tool, but that's your choice.

I wish you success in your trumpet playing!

Regards,

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-10-12 00:58 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:34 am Post subject:

Wilford Mansfield said,

"The honorable Carmine Caruso, right nice chap if I do say so, said that the bloody main purpose of pedals is to release tension by freein' the lips from the bloomin' left arm. He said one fine thing right urgently mates, to ALWAYS play a double octave C chromatic scale after messin with the pedals so as to re-establish the embouchure."

Good one Wilford! This is EXACTLY the procedure to employ when practicing pedals correctly. The embouchure used in the normal playing range needs to always be reestablished after practicing pedals. Failing to do so will not give the normal register embouchure a chance to learn from the pedal activity. It is in a player's best interest to practice regular exercises, scales, etudes, etc., also, after doing pedals. Putting the horn away right after practicing pedals defeats the whole purpose of exposing the lips to the extended range of motion found in pedal exercises.

But, like anything else, pedals must be understood correctly and used properly to be effective. Those who don't understand them, usually use them incorrectly and then critisize their ineffectiveness.

bulos · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 7:41 am Post subject:

There has been a lot of talk about pedals going on, not only here but in the Reinhardt "forum" (better watch yo' ass there !!!) Al of this piqued my curiosity so I e-mailed a couple of my trumpet buddies who had illustrious careers and wanted to see what they had to say. The following is from John Bello. From those of you to whom his is not a familiar name , John was one of the outstanding lead trumpeters in NY, Atlantic City and LA for many, many years. He did TV, recordings, played with some of Maynards best bands back in the day, and is generally a powerhouse of a player. Now in his 70's his double "B's" still shake the walls. This is his take on pedals ( I am not presentinfg this to dispute anyone merely as an interesting point of view I think)

"hey paul:
i don't know of any big time players who do pedals as a steady practice routine. they tend to spread the chops and loosen the apperture for the high notes. they are good as a quick fix when your chops are puffy or when you are fatigued on a gig, you play some pedals to revive the vibrations. too many pedals are not good. "

I also petitioned Al Stewart and when he answers me I wil post that too.....Al played lead for dizzy, Woody, Benny Goodman, etc etc etc. One of the great old lead players.
have a good weekend!
Paul Ayick
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

bulos · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:23 am Post subject:

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:04 pm Post subject:

Here's another quote from the author of this thread.

"Many players find great success without ever playing a pedal. If you are not one of those naturally gifted players, for you, the playing field can be leveled by practicing pedals."

This is the crux of the whole matter. It's not whether great player A or great player B endorses the use of them. Many players don't need them. If you are one of those fortunate ones then why would you choose to be bothered by doing pedals? If you don't need them there is no reason to practice them.

The topic of this thread is NOT, "Why everyone should play pedals." And yet several posters seem to be bound and determined to approach this thread that way. In my quoted statement above, I think it is clear that the issue is whether a player needs the benefits of pedals or not. John Bello doesn't know any great players that use pedals on a daily basis. But does that statement mean that great players that he knows have never used them? There is no way of knowing. Pedals can be used and once the chops have gained the benefit from them, they can be removed from the practice schedule. Also, if pedals are practiced incorrectly, a player would be better served by not doing them at all.

So here are two scenarios.

Player A.

He practices pedals for X amount of time, reaps the benefits, gets his chops in good shape and then pretty much leaves the pedals by the wayside and goes on to a successful career as a trumpet player using more conventional developmental and maintainance drills in his practice schedule. Later John Bello gets to know him and is not aware that pedals have ever had anything to do with player A's ability.

Player B.

He practices pedals incorrectly some of the time or all of the time. He is unable to identify any improvement in his playing from practoicing the pedals. The fact is probably that the pedals, since they are being practiced incorrectly, are actually getting in his way and may very well be slowing his progress down or actually reversing it. He stops practicing pedals. Now the negative force of incorrect pedals is removed and player B starts improving. So all of a sudden, pedals are seen as the villain.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, and this couldn't be more graphically illustrated than in the incorrect application of pedal tone exercises.

Pedals reduce the pressure of the mouthpiece on the lips by teaching the muscles of the face how to set the lips and be able to vibrate at high frequencies on their own, and not need the support of a lot of mpc pressure. If you are a player who uses too much pressure, then pedals, if practiced correctly, will reduce that mouthpiece pressure. My mind set on pressure is that less is best. For that reason, I have made pedals a life long part of my daily practice.

bulos · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 4:21 pm Post subject:

Some good points you raised Charly ....and my personal experience has been that I knew many good and great players who did and still do practice them...........whatever works.

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 4:43 pm Post subject:

"Al and Burt Collins were such a great pair of trumpet players. Heard them with Bernie Glow and Marv Stamm as a section in the late 60's. What a sound!"

Burt Collins and Marvin Stamm give endless credit to Carmine Caruso for their success as trumpet players. I wonder if Carmine had them doing pedals. I spoke with Burt a few months ago and he flat out said that without Carmine he wouldn't have had a career.

bulos · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:20 pm Post subject:

charly said: "Burt Collins and Marvin Stamm give endless credit to Carmine Caruso for their success as trumpet players. I wonder if Carmine had them doing pedals".

well both Marvin and Burt were regulars during the period I was going to see him and I know that Carmine not only had me doing pedals but some of the guys I knew who took from him also, so in that light, I'd take a semi-educated guess that yes they were probably doing them too........but of course this is speculative. I think the thing we have to keep in mind however is that for Carmine, pedals were just a small part of his total teachings, unlike say Maggio were pedals are the main component.
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

Jerry Freedman · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:35 pm Post subject:

Could you elaborate on the Maggio approach/reliance on pedals. I am completely unfamiliar with the Maggio teaching other than what Pops has written so this is a purely curiousity satisfying question although it is in the context of this thread.

J. Freedman

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:54 pm Post subject:

Paul,

You said, "I think the thing we have to keep in mind however is that for Carmine, pedals were just a small part of his total teachings,"

I think I came along a few years after you with Carmine. I started in June, 1973. I went through many books with him plus everything that eventually became MCFB in 1979 plus many things that aren't in MCFB. But, I gotta say, Carmine very much impressed upon me the importance and especially the power of pedal studies done his way. He emphasized them with me and all the other guys that I knew who were studying with him at the time. (He also had some very extensive free buzzing and mouthpiece drills.) Pedals were usually assigned very early on, usually around the time that the Fourths LSL were assigned, and subsequently became a permanent part of the daily routine. I always had the feeling that Carmine had more confidance in the ability of pedals to get a player's embouchure working efficiently than any other single exercise.

I would characterize his perception of and approach to pedals as being a very fundamental principle of his teaching technique. Going through the Clarke book six times was a huge assignment. I think it took me around two years. But, all of that playing, plus the many other books (Laurent, Schlossberg, Baermann, Bower) and assignments, were always viewed by me as being predicated on the basic building blocks of the pedals and interval studies.

Regards,
_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-10-19 21:57 ]

bulos · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 7:19 pm Post subject:

Charly said: I gotta say, Carmine very much impressed upon me the importance and especially the power of pedal studies done his way.

Charly,

i think you were starting with Carmine about the time I was petering off there. It's been a looong time and perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me but I remember the emphasis (after the various 6 notes models and interval studies) as being on the developed scales and clarinet music. I only recall him mentioning pedals as a sort of remedy for beat up chops but like I said that was 35 years ago and my memory may be clouded. One of the guys I work with down here (Tom Rheam) was a Carmine student even before me, we have a gig tomorrow and I will ask him what he recalls and let you know. I had made a book of all the things I did when I was with him but for the life of me can't find it anywhere.
Paul

bulos · Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:33 am Post subject:

[quote]
On 2002-10-19 14:23, bulos wrote:
[quote]
On 2002-10-19 11:43, dbacon wrote:
Paul,

Thanks for the info from John Bello. I'd be interested in any posts from Al Stewart as well, great player!

Dave...........

Here is what Al has to say on the subject.......remember I only present these views as one mans opinion and not to diminish what any other poster may have said. Ultimately I think it all boils down to what works for moi and one mans potion may be anothers poison. However I always finfd the opinions of guys like al and Johnny to be interesting for they lived it and had long succesful careers. here ya go:

Hi Paul,
I don't really have a concrete opinion on the pedals. There are some
players that can play them but then I say to myself so what! They have
never been used in the music that I've ever played nor can I say that I
ever had any consistancy in playing them when I tried. Personally I don't
know what good they do for general playing of the horn. I once had a tape
of either Del Staigers or Louis Levy playing the Carnival of Venice an
octave lower which was quite a feat of accomplishment but so what. It
wasn't particularly beautiful. Just sounded like in tune farts. Other
than the occasional Cat Anderson when Maynard first came around he blew
your mind with the excitement, sound and control of that register and
opened up thinking and playing like that to a generation of younger guys
coming along. Just listen to the way they play these days. It seems like
everyone blowing a horn can play the upper register with relative ease.
Musically is another matter. I personally think that whatever range one
has, it's really the music that is made within those parameters that says
it all. Don Joseph had no register to speak of but the lines of music
that he wove
touched you. I don't know if you get that much from the one tape I sent
you but I did hear him many times through the years. Once when he was
called to play September Song for a Gleason date we did at Manhattan
Center, the band forgot to come in just listening to him. Gleason didn't
dig it and hired Rex Stewart to do the date over! Yet he did those "Music
For Lovers Only "albums with Bobby Hackett which were beautiful....
Go figure it!!
Al
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

bulos · Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:32 pm Post subject:

Charly I talked with Tom Rheam today we were on a Melton Mustafa gig and he supports what you said about Carmine and pedals.............funny but I just don't have the vivid of a recollection in regards to that. I wonder if perhaps carmine prescribed them differently to different players? More likely I have just forgotten over the years.