My Process of Adopting TCE professionally serious thread...

[NickD]

Ole mentioned that he was glad to have to recordings of the TCE stuff. Thans so much for your kind words Ole! I hope I really deserve them. Well, not everyone who has responded to my posts and listened those sound clips shares Ole's kind enthusiasm. So, I give fair warning that it is my plan to remove that file in exactly one week from now (Friday 3/21). I'll leave it there for you folks who feel that you'd like to have it to download.

http://www.mp3unsigned.com/Showmp3.asp?mp3id=30355&aid=633

I did those TCE Practice clips with the spirit of sharing and perhaps even just a little play on my part. It's just fun to mess with new stuff a bit when you start to get the hang of it. So, have fun. Next Friday, I'll take it down. BTW, I am only making this announcement here by virtue of the dedicated fourm.

Peace, all.

Nick
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[tptguy]

<<not everyone who has responded to my posts and listened those sound clips shares Ole's kind enthusiasm>>

There seems to be a certain brand of person out there that either can't, or more likely refuses, to distinguish btw practice exercises and music. You let them know that it's practice material and they come back and say, "What, that isn't musical." Ah, duh! In my experience, those same kind of people try to discourage anyone from pursuing or developing anything new. If it was good enough for grandpop it should be good enough for us. The fact that it didn't work for us shouldn't have any bearing!

The other thing I find repeatedly are the guys coming in and saying essentially, "I can't do that, but if I could do it then I'd be able to do it better than you!" Personallly, I do my best to ignore these kind of people because they hold precisely the attitudes that kept me lodged in a dead end street for several decades. Best to all, Kyle

[Bert]

Nick,

I heard the clip and it sounds awesome. Who wants to play music if you can play the way you do

BTW I still cannot get the other files to work. Any ideas?

Great inspiration!!! I am looking forward to your perception of BE if you are going to explore that ground. I am experimenting with TCE (and your posts helped me a great deal in the right direction!) but essentially my development came and still comes from BE. Please keep us informed of your explorations into whatever method, I think it's worthwhile to have a player like you checking the goods and bads of all kind of method. You seem to be open to any idea, weird or traditional, and there are not many players at your level that act like that. Keep up the good work!

Bert

[lubonv]

Kyle, I enjoied to hear that technical recording by Nick (Thank you very much Nick). It is a very good example of trumpet practicing and playing at very high level. I also appreciated very much Nick inputs on tce. Now of one thing I'm curious: Nick has been an outstanding lead trumpet for so many years, his technical level is not discutible and much probably some recent tce practice has helped him to play on that level with even more easyness and accuracy but... I would like to hear from you (only if you feel like answering) if you hear a particularity of the TCE sound in his recording. Does it pop like that? slur like that? Highest notes have that sound? Should we follow that kind of sound example using tce (within the limits of our registers)?

For sure a very expert tce player and a very expert lead trumpet player can do the same good things on the same level and the difference will be only internal or may be in endurance (and I'm not doubting the very developed endurance level of many lead players).

This recording and your points about it may demonstrate that it can even be useful to hear some practice recordings from players that are learning TCE (and without having an outstanding technique based on their long experience) and share the critics by some tce teachers.

Best Regards
Luca
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[NickD]

Thanks a lot folks! You are all most kind.

First, Bert! Man, I don't know what to say. Are you using a Mac? I have run into folks who are Mac users who had a hard time getting Windows Media files to play off of my music web site. In all honesty, I don't know what to say to that. You could try downloading. Since I now only have sample files up there, I think I'll turn the download features back on. That may help.

Luca, IMHO, I woud NOT use my sound as model, as flattering as it is that someone might consider doing so. My level of TCE is growing. I was correct as I had suspected. My own style of playing had eveloved into something quite close. This is no surprise as I had studied briefly with Jerry during the early part of his Superchops phase, right after my old friend, Nipper Murphy, passed away. I do articutlate the 'T' attack by touching my lip - heck, I stick it right in there, if you know what I mean! I like a more pointed attack, and I can control it better than when I retract my tonge back to the roof of the mouth and go 'too'.

In general, my tone is not quite freed up yet, I don't think. At least not to the extent Jerry is looking for. While I like my sound just fine, I don't seem to quite have it down when it comes to the sizzle Jerry can get. Ow, I am getting it now and then with much greater frequency. I notice it more on the Double C's and notes in tat ball park. I've been albe to hit them fine for years now, but never with the kind of 'sting' or energy that I wanted. Well, since I've been messing with this. I've been getting them to come out a bit stonger. My Hot Canary or Hey There may not be as smokin' as what Jarry could do, but they are a lot stronger than they ever have been FOR ME.

Kyle! Jump in there! If you need to make some negative comments about my sound here, that's OK. You and I have a clear understanding, and I will not take offense. Heck, it will help ME learn more, too!

Gotta run!

Nick
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[Bruno Fernandes]

Hi Nick!
I enjoyed very much all the work you did for this comunity, Your posts helped me a lot, as well as your tce practice sessions, they helped me to get even more on track.I think tce works, and it is working very well for me, but of course it needs Work and patience!!!What you do: trying and experimenting new things is what the greats as H.l.clarke have done, in order to always try to improve, and thinking that we can do always better.I admire you, because you play in a very high level, and you still want to be better working on new stuff(you are very open-minded).EVERYBODY SHOULD RECOGNIZE THAT! Thank you very much,
Bruno
Ps: I just bought your cd, but i am not familiar with this Pay pal thing, so if it doesn't work, do not hesitate and tell me something!
bruno15726@hotmail.com.

[NickD]

First, THANKS BRUNO! I am so grateful for your support. I just got the order and it is shipped - USPS air mail. Give it a few days. As an "underground independant recording aritst" I really apreciate the support from the erudie crowd of trumeters out there who are my biggest supporters. I am trying to make the world a little more beautiful to the best of my ability and hearing!

Next, Aas I am practicing this morning I am keenly aware of a couple of things as I take a little break to type this up.

1.) I really feel much better keeping the tongue forward much more than I used to. This stuff helps!

2.) The lower lip is DEFINITELY above the bottom of my top teeth! I honestly don't know if I was doing that before this explroaiton or not, but it's there now! I think that's pretty cool. When I took lesson from Jerry many years ago in person, I was flaggergasted at how easily he could just scoot around from register to register. He then pointed out to me that his lower lip was all the way up to the upper gum line when he was wailing away up there. Well, I am not there yet, but I find it pretty exciting to see a bit of a morphing going into effect here as I work on his exercises.

3.) The corners are still a rpoblem for me. When I'm playing a high G or double C, I still feel like my corners are pretty "firm." Jerry always encouraged keeping the corners loose and relaxed. He sure did it. I am very aware of bringing the lower lip up from the bottom of the chin, but I still have those darn cornes frimed up. Now, I am not aware of them as I used to be, so maybe this is realaxing a bit. More things to think about!

Well, I was going to let this thread go, but I still kep coming back! Part of that is that I've been learning from your posts. So, I guess I'll keep this up a bit longer.

OK, breaks over! Time to hit it! Thanks again, Bruno!

Nick
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[digs]

Nick,

I wanted to say thanks as well for your sound clips! There is no doubt that you are a monster player! It's also more than clear that you were recording a practice session, and if anyone can't deal with that, well, that's their problem. No question your ability to play musically is fully intact, that's why you are a pro.

It is amazing (shocking, and admirable) that you, playing at the level you do, would experiment with TCE in this way. I have to say in general that players like you and the community overall in this forum have really gotten me to open my mind about how I play, and I've stuck with this TCE thing for almost 3 months now because of it. I'm happy to say that I feel I'm playing better than ever now (thanks to this forum in large part), and I can once again start focusing on playing musically as the tongue and chops get used to doing what they need to do.

I'll start another thread sometime soon to share more about my progress, but Nick I wanted to say thanks again for your insight, and to the rest of you for your input regarding Nick's experiments. I'm learning much from it!

Digs

[Bert]

[Ion]

Nick, the listening of your practice sessions was a wonderful thing for me, too.
I don't have the TCE books, i can't find a TCE teacher here, and even i can't call Mr. Callet or Bahb ..
But i and we all have this great forum and now we have your very good examples of TCE practice sessions. For guys with very limited budget ( if there is another else than me ) these are being very very helpful. Keep up the good work.
Thank you very much,
Ion

[Jerry Freedman]

Nick,

Great stuff on your TCE practice session but I have a question.

When I first started as a comeback I remember your stuff on the web, lip buzzing, mouthpiece, playing scales on the horn without the valves etc..all part of Embouchure by Design where you fixed your embouchure because you felt insecure. But that was the embouchure that got you on Maynard's band. How did you first develop the range that got you with Maynard and how did it fail you?

[NickD]

Jerry, I just got in from a gig, and I need to crash, but I wanted to field your question first.

OK, the Embouchure Design thing was what I did to FIX my chops after the problems arose. Previous to my developing Embouchure Design, I studied various methods. Here's a list, in rough order of my discovery.

1.) Trumpet Yoga - Callet
2.) 52 Week Method - Calude Gordon
3.) Carmine Caruso Musical Calethenics for Brass(including some lessons with Caruso)
4.) Super Chops - Callet (including some lessons with Jerry)
5.) Embouchure Design - my own thing
6.) Grad School - pretty much a NU thing
6.) Truncated Embouchure Design
7.) Back to Trumpet Secrets

None of these methods were inherently bad. In fact, they're all great and have a place for different people. The problem was, before grad school, I was exploring these things on my own with nobody to share ideas with. This was particularly true when I was in college becasue I was an electrical engineering major - NOT music! The method that first got me some chops was Claude Gordon. It is a perfectly good method, however, it doesn't NOT specifically address PRESSURE. I was mashing and mangling my chops. I was also fooled by the idea that I really needed to use some big mouthpieces in order to really be cutting it.

In any case, I got pretty good and playing lead in spite of how banged up my chops would get. I'd get painful welts and just hammer away anyway! It even happened to me on Mayard's band.

Even though the first method I encountered that dealt with chops was Trumpet Yoga, a method that was developed by a guy who use very little pressure, I was NOT doing learning the system at all. I was just trying to play the exercises as if that just playing them would somehow help be be better by some sort of magic. I was young and stupid.

The CG book got me into the Colin Lip Flexibilities. They helped me a great deal by virtue of tongue control (sound familiar?). Now, it wasn't TCE, but I was making some headway.

When I was on MF's band I was using a Purviance 4*K4. That was a nice lead mouthpiece with a fat round rim - VERY comfortable, but decieving! I would press like the daylights with it and get away with it for a few hours, but then a toll would be taken.

So what failed me was the fact that my playing was very tense and brute force oriented. I could make it work, but things were inconsistent, and I was an insecure player, desparately trying to hide things when my chops were "off."

I abandoned Embouchure Design in part because some of the ring buzzing fostered some tension and it was a bit time consuming. I want to play more jazz, so I need to spend less time with chops exercises. So I truncated E.D down to the bare minimum. In the process I became aware of how I was uisng my chos and tongue differenlty. Then I spotted the ITG review and bought Jerry's book. In the evolutionary process, I had stumbled pretty close to what Jerry is teaching now. So, given how easily Callet navigates the stratoshphere, it stuck me as a perfect time to really explore this thing. Perhaps I could finally achieve a level of efficiency I've always dreamed of.

Did I NEED to embark on this exercise? IHMO, no I didn't. Those insecurities are pretty much gone. I just LOVE to play and I want to do more and more! I just like learning stuff and trying to get better at this thing called 'trumpet playing.' I've been having fun seeing what the possibilites are, and after my two gigs Saturday night, I am REALLY glad I did! I'll post about that later.

In conclusion, the E.D. thing was not a failure. It was a necessary thing for me to do to unravel some problems. Jerry figured out his thing pretty much on his own. Well, I am a reasonably intellignet guy, educated, and I figured I could sort it out on my own as well. Jerry was a model for me in that regard. What I DIDN'T spot was where my tongue control thing was going and the chops set.

Jerry, I am downright PUNCHY! I had tow gigs and I've been on the road from 4:00 to midnight blolwing my brains out. If there is anyting a bit addled here, PLEASE nudge me a bit with another post, and I'll try to elucidate.

BTW, I just wanted to show off by using the word 'elucidate.' Now, to go look it up...

Peace!

NIck
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[tptguy]

So you guys are going to drag me into this despite my great hesitation to do any personal critiques! I’m not going to continue this in the future because it’s much too presumptuous and bold of me to critique a great player such as Nick as well as anyone else; that’s Jerry’s job and his great expertise. But as you’ve twisted my arm and Nick has encouraged me too:

First of all, Nick is clearly doing an awesome job on everything and anyone who can’t hear that has their ears up their butt! Secondly, it’s not realistic to do any TCE critiques without seeing and knowing a player first hand. Jerry and I have both fooled by excellent sound until we had a chance to see someone first hand and tell that they were getting it by some non-TCE method. Then, the clue is that they were working much to hard to get comparable results.

Nonetheless, there are a few points that come to mind that we can perhaps learn from in listening to Nick’s excellent practice exercises. That’s why he has been so gracious in putting them up there for us. After just one run through, as Nick has apparently now taken them down:

1st, if you listen to him on exercise #38 you can hear the tongue get tired and recede by the A in the staff. The pop and center on the A-B-C are starting to slip. Not that he has any trouble hitting them, of course, but they don’t have nearly the focus of the earlier notes. That’s just a little more practice and concentration on the full forward tongue. That’s what practice is about; you can’t cheat. I’m sure Nick knows that better than any of us.

2nd, The attacks on #40 A & B are (to my ears) clearly soft legato attacks with the tongue receded and arching behind the front teeth ala Claude Gordon. To make this exercise continue Nick resorts to considerably more air and not much POP. That can be a perfectly fine musical approach but endurance and control will suffer as Nick overblows them. In performance do whatever you have to in order to achieve the musical expression you desire. In a practice routine Nick will want to strive for even more TCE discipline. Of course, that’s precisely what he is working on.

3rd, In #59 1 & 2 Nick gets much too much of a POM sound. It’s wide and full but not what the exercise calls for ala Jerry. The quarter notes, especially, are slipping because the tongue has receded before Nick hits them. A much crisper attack with much shorter notes, a clean tongue compression finish to the notes, all at a decidedly slower tempo will achieve more of what Jerry is looking for.

That being said, it’s much, much easier to say these things while just sitting here in my armchair! As anyone with good tpt ears can tell, Nick is doing a great job. And, these are just subtle points to add TCE polish to an already excellent practice routine. I think that Nick will agree that he is moving btw his older and much more established Claude Gordon technique and his newer, even more disciplined TCE technique. He has had a ton more time to establish his CG technique, but as he works on TCE it will get even better and better. TCE will make his routine much more polished. More importantly, it will make those extremely demanding routines much easier to perform and give him vastly improved endurance as well as a much more focused and centered sound in the stratosphere; just what is is looking for.

So there, all you buggers have something of mine to to sink your teeth into. Go ahead and tear me apart. As I’m quite sure Nick will agree, sincere critique with the goal of providing some honest and helpful feedback is what we are all after. If I’m way off base I’ll be happy to have Nick be the 1st to tell me. I’m sure that he’ll understand that I’m only offering this as what my ears tell me from afar. The rest is left to honest effort on behalf of reaching the very high goals that we’ve all set for ourselves and that Nick has already clearly accomplished. Best to all (and especially to Nick!), Kyle

PS - The sound files are still up, hoorah! I couldn't get through for a 2nd listen earlier, but they are there now. Hopefully Nick will leave them up at least a little longer so people can critique me rather than Nick! - kes

[NickD]

I knew if I kept at this, I could cop a free lesson out one you guys! Heh, heh!

Kyle is dead on. I really have to struggle at keeping my tongue forward as Jerry wants it. I had two gigs yesterday. It was REALLY interesting trying to apply this on a gig. My afternon gig was a wedding ceremony. I played only C and picc. The blowing was sedate and leisurely, even with the high picc stuff. I was able to just calmly set with my tongue pushed up behind my lower lip as I have been trying to do. I found things to be working absolutely effortlessly. I honestly think I had it down there. It was really amazing. I also had a LOT of comments from the crowd at how great things sounded. Oh yeah, what made this even more interestig was the fact that I haven't played my picc since a January!

What was significant here was the tongue position. I was able to just focus on that as the music was stuff I could just play from memory and play VERY relaxed. It was that relaxed part that got to me. I really want to keep that coming.

Now, on to my big band gig. In doing my own thing for a while I have gotten my chops to a pretty strong and consistent state, so my chops and lead playing have been going strong. That having been said, I have been almost avoiding taking lead gigs as I want to get away from being pigeon holed as a high note lead player, and gain some acceptance as a jazz player who can play some lead (there's more work in that!). Well, last night I got called to play the lead book for a big band lead by a local jazz radio host. I haven't worked for him in a while, so it was nice to get the sub call on the lead book. I resisted the temptation to so no and ask for the jazz book. I'm not sure why, but fwiiw, the call for the gig came through just before I started the TCE experimenting.

Well, I had more mixed results with the big band gig. First, it was a great gig and I had a lot of fun just blowing my brains out. Also the guy I was subbing for is another guy who is a jazz player who blows lead, so there were a lot of nice solos in the book.

The mixed results were really interesting. This three hour gig had a more "in the heat of battle" component to it. Ther was a LOT more to concentrate on, so I have no doubt that the receeding thing Kyle points out was slipping in and out of there. When I am soloing - making up my own lines - I close my eyes and try to hear the chords and I can focus on what I am doing with my chops, so I found that I could pull off a more TCE like set. Strangely enough, when I was playing some of the higher written lines, I would slip back to my old ways a bit, and have to resort to a lot more air to achieve the results. The audience wouldn't have known, but it was more noticable to me that I am inconsistent with the TCE thing.

At the end of the evening, though, was when I got a bit of an epiphany. I was a little tired out - long day - and I had a high note on the end of a tune - a G. I fumbled it a bit. No big thang! However the band leader did his "Leopold" thing (for Bugs Bunny fans) and held it out way too long, so I had a shot a reprive. Well, I got it. I took the moutpiece off for a split second, reset and got my tongue set behind the lower lip and then made sure that I had my lips rolled more like I do when I think I've got TCE running better. Well, the G just zipped right out. I was liike a sax player who just popped in a new reed.

I really appreciate Kyle's comments. I hope you can all hear it. Now, before you all get ticked at Kyle, remember, I ASKED him to do this a couple of posts back. I'm not afraid of some criticism in this context. I know I can play my horn. Ijust want to play it BETTER. These dedicated forums are here for that purpose. Like I said at the top of this post, Ijust got a free lesson!

OK, "in for a penny, in for a pound!" I'm NOT going to let this thread go here on TH. I'm going to let it go on some of the other forums, as it was not very well received. That's OK.

I'm going to work on ths some more and re-record a new set of files and see how I can make it work better.

My next plan was to hjook up with Bill Adams. I have already rasied some eyebros - "from Callet to Adams?" The guy playng the second book last night is a monster lead player who is an Adams disciple. Adams isn't into the chops thing, so I feel like this will work. However, I can't do that this week. It will have to wait till summer, so I will be really workling hard on the TCE thing to try and solidfy my form into not slipping in and out.

Well, that's it for now. Remember, the TCE file up now will come down next Friday. I'm going to wait a week or two before I do that again.

TTFN

Nick
_________________
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[lubonv]

Here you go!! You great guys!!!! What a great and instructive exchange, Men!

Thank you so much!

Luca
_________________
"For if the trumpet has an uncertain sound who will prepare himself for the battle?" Paul, Ch.

Custom Made Slide Trumpet & Slide Flugelhorn
SC3

Myspace

[NickD]

This was eleided fomr another post I made elsewhere. I hope this helps a bit.

[razeontherock]

Hey Nick -

I find the cork doesn't work to well to keep a space btw my teeth. It squishes, and eventually falls apart. Then again, I use a LOT of force w/ my jaws, so I'm finding out! The athletic plastic mpc thing is a better way to go I think.

I did a thread here re: Adam & Callet, and it wasn't very well received, but my ideas did mature quite a bit as a result. The basic difference btw the 2 is Adam (no s) doesn't want you thinking about chops. Get TCE down first, and his mental stuff helps anybody! Read "The Inner Book of Tennis," and Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner.
Actually taking lessons w/ Mr. Adam may undo your TCE - I don't know, but I'd be curious to hear your experience of you take that route.

All the best,

Ray
_________________
"And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details

[Jerry Freedman]

For a while, my teacher had another student that was an engineer. He made up these little plastic cubes with wings--like the dentists use when they take Xrays...worked better than cork

[tptguy]

Ray,

<<The basic difference btw the 2 is Adam (no s) doesn't want you thinking about chops.>>

Yes that difference and practically everything else! I may be overstating, but couldn't resist the tease.

Stay well, Kyle

[razeontherock]

I'm OK with the tease, but once that difference (being aware of the physical setup) is out of the way the other differences don't conflict, they just deal with different issues, IMHO. From my perspective they fit together very well.
I'd be curious to see how Jerry would teach a student who has TCE perfected, but still has to concentrate to keep it going?