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2-5-1
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: |
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To the op:
Disregard this thread. It'll just confuse you more than it will help. Find the best teacher in your area and do everything this he/she says and you'll be fine. You're only 15, and it sounds like you're off to a good start.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| PhxHorn wrote: | | Bergeron mentioned in a clinic a few years ago that he can play a double C without arching his tongue, though it wasn't the most comfortable way to do it. So he did say that arching your tongue helps, but is not a requirement. |
Yes, somewhere around the 700th paragraph in my above manifesto I think I said something similar. 
Except, as I wrote in my case, its more like a C or D above High C. Hey, I'm not Wayne so give me a break!
Though I don't want to appear to contradict myself, I have sometimes found that when playing the extreme upper register, there is a certain way I can get the note (Double C) where I don't need to arch my tongue at all. But when I do this, I am making a freakishly strange embouchure, rolling my lips WAY inward and not in general playing with an embouchure I could use at all for normal playing. The note is also extremely thin and small sounding when I do this. |
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John Mohan
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| 2-5-1 wrote: | To the op:
Disregard this thread. It'll just confuse you more than it will help. Find the best teacher in your area and do everything this he/she says and you'll be fine. You're only 15, and it sounds like you're off to a good start. |
Yes, as I wrote, this is what happens pretty much every time around here. A bunch of people try to help the OP, then certain folks start trying to turn it into a Physics Equation (and sometimes one of them starts insulting and lying about things), and then it's just downhill from there.
The OP might want to pay attention to at least what was written on 23 April 23rd at 9:17am in this thread. I think that's pretty good stuff... actually its just a longer version of your final sentence! 
Here's a more succinct version of what I wrote before:
| Quote: | Very good. You are on the right path. I would suggest you stay with what you are doing for now, as it is working for you. Don't expect miracles. Your range will grow bit by bit over a long period of time. The rate at which it grows will vary. You will hit plateaus and sometimes think you'll never progress. But stick with it and you will.
I was once a 16 year old student trumpet player with a range that ended right around High C. Then (finally) I happened upon the books and method of Claude Gordon. I bought the books, started studying faithfully from them, and like you, my range started growing. But even more important, my sound, technique, and especially, my consistency grew.
Al Vizzutti's method is very similar to Claude's in that it promotes growth in all aspects of playing. And this is good!!! As Claude often said to me: "Don't worry about the high notes. High notes are inevitable if you're practicing correctly. They'll develop right along with the rest of the machine."
So for now, stick with what you're doing. If you need help setting up a daily routine in the future that encompasses all aspects of your playing, I'd be happy to help you stay on course. |
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2-5-1
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, as I wrote, this is what happens pretty much every time around here |
You're just as responsible for these train wreck threads. In this one, you start by saying how wrong someone is. Consult page 4 for reference.
They all start the same way too....Either you or Kalijah will post a reply, then the other comes through saying how wrong the other person is. It's like clockwork. Every. Time.
I'm sure you're both good players. Why don't you just let this whole tongue arch thing go? Not that I care, I just hate to see some kid come on here looking for advice getting there inbox filled up with posts about coffee stirrers and scientific definitions of pressure, force, etc, etc, etc. I assure you, the OP is NOT being helped by this argument! You're never going to agree, so just ignore each others posts.
On the other hand, you both are trumpet forum celebrities now...so that has to count for something.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| 2-5-1 wrote: | | Quote: | | Yes, as I wrote, this is what happens pretty much every time around here |
You're just as responsible for these train wreck threads. In this one, you start by saying how wrong someone is. Consult page 4 for reference. |
Well he was wrong. Oh God, what have I done? Here we go again!
| 2-5-1 wrote: | They all start the same way too....Either you or Kalijah will post a reply, then the other comes through saying how wrong the other person is. It's like clockwork. Every. Time.
I'm sure you're both good players. Why don't you just let this whole tongue arch thing go? Not that I care, I just hate to see some kid come on here looking for advice getting there inbox filled up with posts about coffee stirrers and scientific definitions of pressure, force, etc, etc, etc. I assure you, the OP is NOT being helped by this argument! You're never going to agree, so just ignore each others posts.
On the other hand, you both are trumpet forum celebrities now...so that has to count for something. |
I appreciate your frustration. I'm frustrated, too.
In all honesty, I think the OP could be very much helped by what I write - I base this opinion not on ego but on past experience. I get private messages and e-mails all the time from players who thank me for what I've written. But maybe Darryl does too...
It's very hard for me to sit and read where someone writes words to the effect of "Range or lack thereof is NOT an air problem it is NEVER an air problem - it is always an embouchure problem" when I know this is just blatantly false and not write anything to point out the error of such viewpoints. If I as a professional player and teacher read these words in a discussion and than make a reply in that discussion that doesn't address my disagreement with such opinions I am then tacitly giving approval to said opinion. Am I doing the kid a favor then?
You might not have noticed it, but for several years now for the most part I have refrained from stating my belief that the arching tongue speeds up the air. I still believe it probably does, but in view of the fact that I have no hard evidence proving that it does (though logic seems to support that it does), I decided several years ago to refrain from writing that it does in respect for Darryl, who pointed out that there is no proof that it does. And like Darryl I came to the conclusion that it is not really important to know for sure whether it does or not - what is important is to know the general movements of the tongue, the lips and the face, and how we blow harder for higher notes and back off for lower notes. And then to work on it all by practicing until we get the feel or "knack" of how to do it, and it all works correctly by habit.
That's the really important part. The practicing part. Take two players. Give one through some type of divine intervention, all the knowledge there ever was to know about the mechanics of trumpet playing. But don't let him practice a note, ever. Take the other, and give him a trumpet and mouthpiece. Explain nothing. Or as some teachers do, explain things wrong (no pressure! breath from the diaphragm! smile when you play! tighten those corners!). But give him exercises to play and practice, and tell him to practice until he gets the feel of how to do it. Which one would you want to listen to in a few years?
Now, I've got to get to practicing!
Best wishes,
John
P.S. I've been listening to the music on your Website as I type this. Great stuff!!! Maybe if I listened to crappy music while typing my posts wouldn't get so long... |
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garrett901
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I appreciate your frustration. I'm frustrated, too. |
That's why I stopped. Even after demonstrating proof and showing the mathematical equations demonstrating the Laws of Physics. I just PM the Op's and let them make up there minds.
Don't fret too much, it's just a side effect of freedom...
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3288
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Quote: | | I really get the feeling you know exactly what I am trying to describe, but your views are so dogmatic, that when you can’t provide any real arguments you resort to picking on the wording. |
Well let's review your statement that you claim I am "picking on":
You wrote: | Quote: | | The up and forward-arching tongue channels the air |
Fine, the air does need at least some path to flow to the aperture, but the absence of a “channel” does not mean the absence of a path, As a matter of fact, the wider the path the more efficient the flow. The up-and forward arch is a response to the muscle action of the inside corners as you form the embouchure to ascend. A path for the air must also remain, thus your “channel”.
| Quote: | | .. concentrates the force onto a smaller area of the lips. It doesn't decrease the power, but rather, directs it to a certain area, thereby increasing its force in that particular area |
Air does not have “force” it has “pressure”. The force that air pressure can produce on an area depends on the size of the area that it acts upon. So for a given pressure, acting on a smaller area gives a smaller force.
Are you attempting to claim that “concentration” of pressure means more pressure OR more force acting on that smaller area? It appears so by the way you presented it. I am not attempting to nit-pick your semantics. But if you did not mean what you wrote please clarify.
| Quote: | | but your views are so dogmatic |
So high-school level science, which is unquestionably accepted physical law, is a “dogmatic” view?
| Quote: | | you can’t provide any real arguments you resort to picking on the wording. |
I just did provide a real, logical and lucid argument based on physical law. As I usually do.
Words have meanings. Widely accepted meanings. Now, if you use words like “pressure” and “force” and “concentration” in some context other than the accepted meanings perhaps you could explain what you really mean.
You use “concentration” in some visual sense to encourage a certain action, all fine and good. But your description also employs some explanation using accepted terms, with very specific definitions, in a technical sense such that you make an odd claim.
The statement as you wrote attempts to attribute your “tongue channel” to an additional increase in air pressure greater than what the lungs provide. This is a conceptual “over-selling” of the technique. It is fine for the OP and everyone else to be aware of that.
| Quote: | | The tongue does to the airstream exactly what a hose nozzle does to a water stream – it concentrates it so it acts on a smaller area – in the case of the nozzle, it makes a water stream capable of spraying rocks off a driveway; in the case of the tongue, it makes an airstream capable of playing extreme high notes. |
Not a valid comparison, You still insist on an erroneous explanation of how a hose nozzle works. I have debunked this comparison several time already.
Shall I do it again?
It appears John that your idea of a "channel" is that the tongue "masks" the pressure to certain areas. I will assume that is possible. But this reduction in the area that does remain exposed to the air pressure does not experience any "concentration", that is, increase, in air pressure as that is what you appear to be claiming.
Did you mean to convey something else?
Last edited by kalijah on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Not all this again... 
Seriously, no one is interested in this debate anymore, if they ever were.
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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By the way.
To the OP:
Range or lack thereof is NOT an air problem it is NEVER an air problem - it is always an embouchure problem |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | By the way.
To the OP:
Range or lack thereof is NOT an air problem it is NEVER an air problem - it is always an embouchure problem |
Using "NOT" and "NEVER" makes me pretty sure you've never taught the trumpet to anyone - particularly to young students.
There are so many issues that a student can have with playing let alone range that to simply discount any because of some abstract physics that don't account for all the things a young kid can do wrong is ridiculous.
Nothing to do with tongue level or anything - but blanket statements like that are completely bogus.
Sure, lots of range issues are indeed due to the embouchure, but you'd be amazed how little air some people try to play trumpet with, how poorly they blow, and how poorly they can breathe. Those are all air issues.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Not all this again...
Seriously, no one is interested in this debate anymore, if they ever were.
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No one? Really? So you speak for all? |
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Crazy Finn
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | No one? Really? So you speak for all? |
No, but the resounding silence you hear most of the rest of the forum is indicative of something.
And with that, I'm done with this thread.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sure, lots of range issues are indeed due to the embouchure, but you'd be amazed how little air some people try to play trumpet with.
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Dont get me wrong. I did not say air can not be a problem. It certainly can be. But it is a problem related to providing the correct air pressure for the loudness at hand or controlling that pressure for the loudness of the musical note or phrase.
The prevailing advice from teachers for almost every problem is "MORE AIR" when that is only sometimes the correct advice if one is playing too softly. And even then not in all cases. |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Let's look at a few statements.
| kalijah wrote: | | Dont get me wrong. I did not say air can not be a problem. It certainly can be. |
But you did say exactly that.
| kalijah wrote: | | Range or lack thereof is NOT an air problem it is NEVER an air problem - it is always an embouchure problem |
That's why blanket definitive statements are usually bogus.
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geezer
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by geezer on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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I said range is not an air problem. That is, tonal range.
Loudness, that is, dynamic range. Can be an air problem. That includes all notes that one CAN play. If they can't play it, it is because the embouchure will not produce it. And THAT is 100 percent an embouchure problem.
For example if you can play a perfect beautiful high C , but its loudness is limited by the air pressure you can produce then that is an air pressure problem. You may be tensing the abs and limiting the pressure. You can already have the capability to play the note and could play it louder as you learn to effectively produce more air pressure.
If you DO have the capability of more pressure but the high loud note falls apart. That is an embouchure problem because you can not effectively use the pressure that you CAN provide.
Some call it "overblowing" but actually it is underperformance (of the playing embouchure). |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| 2-5-1 wrote: |
On the other hand, you both are trumpet forum celebrities now...so that has to count for something. |
And you as well!
Do you lace your boots high?
Are you fly, are you fly?
Do you dig, do you dig?
Do you swing on the gig?
Are you hep to the jive?
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TheLip
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:27 am Post subject: |
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So, to add to the absurdity: I say to use "High Note Grease," it's just that simple. Here are two versions:
http://youtu.be/7BksKg5t0CY by Maynard Ferguson
http://youtu.be/cQKz2Giaj7Y by Louie Prima & Keely Smith
Honestly, though, it's a combination of many, if not all the factors that have been mentioned, and can be different for each player.
For me, as a recent comeback player, I went from my old college range of about an e/f above high c, to a giggling fool who can now get a double c regularly, and I nearly had a heart attack from shock when an errant triple c popped out of my horn while messing around.
How? FOR ME, it was learning to really relax and yes, change my setup a bit (actually, mostly increasing the size of my aperture, my embouchure is pretty-much the same otherwise) from what I used to do 20+ years ago, but it has a LOT more to do with how I now move air through the horn, more efficiently, and most definitely the new positioning of my tongue—experimenting with just that, seeing if I could take it further, was when that freakish triple c popped out.
Now once my endurance comes back, and I clean up my still-pretty-rusty technical skills, I'll be golden. 
Cheers
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INTJ
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
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It's not about describing and understanding the exact physical events taking place. It's about creating a visualization and a feel that makes us do the right things.
For me, figuring out how to visualize a high tongue arch and learning how that feels tripled my endurance above High C, improved my control and intonation, and has brought High A (4 leger lines) into my gigable range.
However, when I describe what I am feeling and visualizing, many go nuts because if they tried what they think I am describing it would be a disaster.
Some may need to visualize monkeys flying out of their butt, and if that works then it IS the right approach..........
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | By the way.
To the OP:
Range or lack thereof is NOT an air problem it is NEVER an air problem - it is always an embouchure problem |
Often it is a combination of both. I usually see someone with bad air caused by using chops incorrectly in the first place. Sometimes there is good air and still bad chops. It isn't common that there are good chops with bad air.
Bad air kills everything but it isn't hard to fix.
Come to think of it, bad chops aren't that hard to fix either if the student follows directions.
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Last edited by Brian Moon on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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