electronics

[RJ]

Has anybody ever used any effects processing with trumpet?

[tom turner]

Hi,

Could you please be more specific?

Are you asking for equipment advice? . . . a list of cutting-edge trumpeters using devices? . . . opinions pro/con about these devices? . . . etc.

Thanks,

Tom Turner

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-26 20:56 ]

[RJ]

Thanks,
To try and be more clear, I'm looking at getting some electronics for myself- probably an effects processor of some kind and something with looping capabilities like the new Boss Loop Station- to use along with moog and a laptop with Reason.

I was just wondering if anyone else uses effects and what kind they would recommend. Also- do you suggest a guitar amp, keyboard amp, or something else?

Thanks guys- RJ

[_Don Herman]

About the only effects I use with trumpet are EQ (which is likely already in your software) and a a spot of reverb to wet things a bit. Musician's Friend is selling the Lexicon MPX100 dual channel digital reverb for $150 right now -- a pretty good deal for a decent sounding unit. Just don't buy the last one, as I want one for myself!

HTH - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-26 20:57 ]

[tom turner]

Hi,

I use primarily a Lexicon MPX-100 to "sweeten" the sound of the horn during both practice and performance.

I recommend recording all your practice time and the MPX-100 is used simply to make the horn sound natural . . . as if in a fine accuoustical hall. It shouldn't be overdone. A wonderful setting for it is the "User" program, Variation 3.

Sometimes I use it on gigs with other settings too, like when adding neat effects where one can double their sound but have the doubled sound play as much as a full octave higher or lower (or anywhere in between harmonically).

I also use a Roland SDE-1000 Digital Delay which was my primary unit until the awesome Lexicon. Now I use the Roland in "double duty" only sparingly--and always with a decay on the delayed sound to die after about 3 pulses . . . and timed with the beat of the song.

The rest of my equipment is described in great detail on earlier threads. Simply hit "search" and type in key words and they'll pull up.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[RJ]

cool,
thanks for all the feedback guys
rj

[pfrank]

I've used effects for years, but different ones for different music. On "accoustic" gigs I don't use the weird ones, just eq., reverb and analog delay.

There is an "electric trumpet" set up I use sometimes (live or recorded) it's: mick into VR Vocalist (smart harmonizer, up to 6 voices, plus a nice hall reverb)--into--Boss 7 band eq.--into--25yo. ElectroHarmonix Dr. Q (best envelope follower for trumpet I've found)--into--2yo. ElectroHarmonix Frequency Analyzer (the new version of a pedal I had in the 70s, replaced, tunable ring modulator, controlable pitch, mix and filtering, effect & dry outputs--into--Morley switchable 2 to 1 switch (to mix the F.A.)--into--DOD RPS 10 (pedal controled delay harmonizer with 'hold' function and backwards delay)--into--Boss analog delay set for long slap back, noticable at the end of phrases--into--Line 6 Delay modelor/looper (good delay effects like Space Echo for that Bitches Brew sound) and 14 or 28 second looper with reverse. (this pedal changed my life, I use it with African talking drum, other percussion objects, Bass guitar, wooden flutes and ocarenas, melodica and hi brass, sometimes one over the other, sometimes as a background over which horn is solo'd)
Live, all this goes into an Ampeg bass amp with a full range speaker system. On recording sessions with this set up, I also lay down an acoustic track, and mix the two to taste. This effects system good for fusion, trip-hop, electronica and ambient musics. It's alot of fun to play with the facility I have on trumpet, but have it sound like nothing else. Sometimes with synth and guitar players, in listening back, we'll say "who did that?!" and later realize that I was! That's fun.
I love to play acoustically too, there's nothing better than a nice natural reverb environment, and even with the electronics, it's an electro/acoustic sound quality I'm going for. There are enough electronically generated sound and beat players out there...they need wind instruments to make it sound human...

_________________
"Truth is not in the heights but at the bottom of all things."
Paul Twitchell

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2002-05-10 10:00 ]

[OCTA-C]

To pfrank: If you can find an old Maestro Ring-Modulator for that electronic set-up you'd be amazed at the spacey sound textures that you can create! (ala Don Ellis)
For nice wah-wah effects, find a good stomp box for bass guitar that has an "auto-wah" patch. The ones made for guitar are not set at quite the proper frequency range as the bass ones are.
If you really want to go analog, try to get your hands on an old Echoplex tape delay. These were also used by Ellis. He used to run two of these units at once.
And, if I'm not mistaken, Phil Driscoll used a few sound processors with a rhythm unit and sequencer for his shows?
_________________
Jay S.

"May the good sound be yours!"

"Always remember to blow into the proper end of the horn!"-circa. 1900 (Harry Gardoon)

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-26 20:57 ]

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-26 20:58 ]

[RJ]

sounds like bass equiptment works best. would you guys recommend that?

[tom turner]

Hi RJ,

I'd recommend getting the very best amp/speaker combination you actually can to play back your sound. The finest YOU . . . with the finest HORN, through the finest MIC, will be ruined if the playback equipment sucks.

MY "RIG" TO "GIG" WITH . . .
I use a super-fine, ultra-clean sounding small Mackie mixer (a 1202VLZ) on-stage to process my horns and effects through--sending the final signal to the house's sound system (usually very fine) via a balanced mic output on the back of my mixer. This gives me--not the soundman--full control over the signal the house gets . . . the soundman can hardly do more than turn it up or down in the house and monitor systems.

I have the Mackie and all my effects units, CD burner and wireless mic receiver in a custom built, constantly wired, carpeted case that I mount at waist-chest level on a sturdy tripod stand next to me--just drop the unit onto the tripod, plug in a single AC cord coming from the unit, plug a single mic cable provided by the "house" system for them and I'm "on" in the "house."

ON STAGE PERSONAL MONITOR
Also coming from my Mackie mixer are stereo "Control Room" outputs that a run to an audiophile quality Bryston amplifier. The Bryston powers two high quality mini-monitor speakers in stereo on mic stands . . . one to my left ear side and one to my right.

The Mackie has a separate "Control Room" volume control, allowing me to control my monitors (and no one else is coming into these monitors) so I can hear myself even with the loudest electronic musicians I may be playing with.

Again, I put the Bryston on the floor, plug it in, run twin cables to it from the Mackie to it and two speaker cables from it to my speakers and I'm "on" in my personal monitor system! SUPER-FAST, SUPER-EASY, SUPER-SOUND OF HI-FI QUALITY!!!

At home the entire case goes into my hi-fi cabinet intact and I use it to record all my practice sessions. Again . . . one AC cable to hook up and two pairs (in and out) of audio cables get plugged in and I'm "on" in my hi-fi system for both recording and playback functions!!!

Yeah, its more elaborate than using a low-fi guitar or bass rig and, the way I have it all mounted, its takes only a few minutes to set up . . . hardly longer than just using a guitar/bass/keyboard amp . . . and I have super-hifi sound . . . and it is multi-purpose! Gosh, I even take the entire rig out to record live music groups . . . also a very fast proposition--no cables to run, break or forget!!!

AMP/SPEAKER-IN-A-BOX ALTERNATIVES
If you decide to go with a portable amp/speaker combination you have three choices:

1. Guitar amps get loud but, because of the distortion folks like to put on their guitar, they usually don't sound that great on trumpet.

2. Bass amps use very large cone speakers to reproduce the bass guitar's low note range at the expense, of course, of the highs--so the overtones of the trumpet will not be there as well.

3. The keyboard amps are 88-key, full-range capable (at least the decent ones) and are best for trumpet.

Frankly, all three make lots of "noise" (volume and electronic hiss) but are not hi-fi quality. They all can satisfy someone for a while but they usually don't have recording quality sound (recording studios use "Direct Boxes" to send their signals to the mixer--and the recording artist usually hears their playing into headphones. They are just fairly crude and cheap stage devices where their flaws are masked by the noise in the "house" anyway.

I'm sure your music means as much to you as mine does to me. You can never go wrong investing in the best stuff you can afford . . . but we all have to start somewhere . . . "been there, done that too!"

Good luck on making wise choices. You didn't mention another crucial element . . . the microphone! ALWAYS invest in a mic like you would your horn--get a great one, for your amplified sound is ONLY as fine as the microphone converts the fidelity of the trumpet's tone!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[RJ]

wow,
once again thanks for all the info. mics- I currently have two Sure 57's that I use to record with my Korg D12 12 track digital recorder. But for this I think I would like a clip on mic. I'm not familiar with those, any suggestions.

I definitly agree with the 'go for the best you can afford' attitude. I always figure, don't put yourself in the poor house, but you do only live once so might as well try to get the best you can- if you hope to make this your lively hood, which is where I'm at with all this.

I like the idea of putting things together in a portable, ready to go package. especially since I have to take public transportation to all my gigs.

effects processors- any specific ones that are nice for trumpet? vocal, guitar, other..

So this is where my thoughts with this are leading- good clip on mic, effects processor, loop pedal/station, possibly a mixer, small amp or stereo monitors, and I really want to incorporate laptop music into this somehow.

(did I mention the part about winning the lottery)

Thanks everybody, I'm learning a lot.
RJ

[ This Message was edited by: RJ on 2002-05-11 16:15 ]

[_Don Herman]

Best clip-ons I've seen are the AMT and SD Systems. Ain't cheap -- 'bout $400 for the AMT, and $500 (I think -- I'm not a fan of clip-ons) for the SD Systems. Don't go cheap, you'll regret it. Rich Szabo, among others, uses the AMT. Available many places, including Giardinelli.

I'll second Tom's suggestion of keyboard amp, but it really depends upon what you want to do with it. Is it for live (stage) or studio (home) monitor?
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[tom turner]

Hi,

Chris Botti uses the "candy cane-like" SD systems mike--a very fine choice for a "clip-on" system since it gets the mic WAAAAY out in front of the horn (to sound more "natural" and also to prevent mic overload).

The three drawbacks of the SD system relate to the fact that it rigidly clamps onto the third valve slide of a trumpet:

1. Fluglehorn, trumpet and (some) cornets all require different length rods that the mic is on.

2. The system cannot be switched quickly to different horns.

3. I gig with four horns (trumpet, flugle, jazz cornet and shephard's crook vintage cornet)--I would have to buy FOUR systems!

4. Trumpet stands won't work. You must hang the crook of the bell on GUITAR stands with their rubber-coated twin "C" hooks . . . and again, one guitar stand for each horn.

MY SOLUTION
I went with the new generation AKG-419 clip on instrument mic that came with the AKG Series 80 UHF wireless system. The AKG system gets the mic farther out there than everything I've seen except the SD systems and it has a nice, rich sound!

I've actually used it on a couple of albums that a group I'm in did during the same week (one a live album, one not)--and the engineer liked it's sound better than the nice Shure KSM-32 large diaphram mic he'd planned to use.

For heavy stage use I also carry an Audio-Technica ATM-11 stand-mounted instrument mic. Really nice sound . . . more mic to trumpet variations possible, etc.

However, lately I'm going more and more with the AKG C-419 wireless . . . that sucker doesn't feedback and makes my horn sound really nice.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

PS: There's a reason I use the Mackie mixer and Lexicon digital effects processor--their outstanding quality of sound, low noise and reasonable prices. I've found none better at their price points and I don't feel I'm giving anything up fidelity-wise within the parameters I got this stuff for.

The Mackie uses ultra-high quality, virtually noise-less mic preamps (advertised to be the quality found in state-of-the-art studio mixers). The mic preamps are SO CRUCIAL to the sound being natural and rich!!! ONE REGRET . . . (and its very, very common) I WISH I'D BOUGHT MORE CHANNELS!!! I bought the little 1202VLZ, figuring I'd never need more inputs . . . WRONG . . . you can never have "enough!"

Lexicon digital effects processors are used in almost all the big studios because of their incredibly realistic sounds. The MPX-100 is a lower cost, STEREO effects unit but has the essential "sounds" in its "chip" from the big ones. It's sound amazes me--its the most noticable improvement I've made in my stage system. NO REGRETS WITH THIS PURCHASE!

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2002-05-12 13:08 ]

[_Don Herman]

Just two comments on Tom' excellent (as usual) post:

(1) I like the AMT's sound better than the AKG, and I'm an AKG guy normally! AMT improved the clamp a year or two ago, and it's an excellent system. I agree on allthe SD drawbacks -- it had the best sound, but unfortunately the most other drawbacks of the systems I played with last year.

(2) I'm waiting to get a 14xx (14 channels) when I need another mixer -- 1000% agree you can never have enough inputs! The other reason is that I really prefer sliders to knobs for level controls on a mixer, even (especially?) a live one. (The 1202 uses knobs; the 140x, sliders.) The cons are easier to knock out of position and they tend to collect more dirt, but the pros are better (finer) control and (most important to a blind sound guy like me ) you can see at a glance where the levels are. The latter is most important to me -- YMMV!

FWIW - Don

p.s. Hey Tom. didn't I hear that 1604 calling your name? And, that Focusrite preamp?
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[tom turner]

[pfrank]