The inconsitancy that haunts bach strads

[puukka]

Hello friends
I´m quite new in this great forum so I might ask something, what had been asked before. Sorry, if it´s like that!
I all the time read about the inconsitancy that haunts bach strads.
I wonder, what can make the difference between each piece?
The material is the same, the mandrels and the tools are the same. Isn´t it true, that more and more machines are doing the job, so inconsitancy should be minimal?
Regards,
Herbert
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Schilke 11C2
K&H Topline

[ken_fung]

I think Yamaha trumpets are very consistent, Schilke also, but not Bach. I know little about the actual manufacturing process so cannot speculate the reason for it. However, I have taken apart many Bach trumpets (mostly with 4xx,xxx to 5xx,xxx serial numbers) and found several common problems (for details please see http://homepage.mac.com/fkm/hornproject/project1.html) :

- braces are not of the correct size, the one between the bell and first valve slide is usually oversized, braces between the bell and leadpipe are sometimes under-sized. Trumpets with such problems play stuffy.

- the tubings on the tuning slide crook is not 100% parallel or the leadpipe is not perfectly horizontal so the tuning slide and leadpipe are compressing against each other. When such a problem is corrected, the high notes will becomes much easier to play!

- in a recent project, I have found that one of the spring barrel is soldered too high so the valve concerned is way out of alignment resulting in a very compressed octave in that horn. Horns from a certain period seems to be commonly having such a problem.

- I have also been told many Bach need to have excess solder inside the tubing removed for best playing results.

Well, sounds terrible but once you have the problems removed, they can be spectacular player with gorgeous sound! Now, I am not saying Yamaha horns are without any problem but that if you find a certain problem in a Yamaha, you can expect the same problem to more or less the same degree on another horn of the same model...that is consistency.
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Greetings from Hong Kong,
Ken

https://www.facebook.com/hkvmc.hk/

[puukka]

Hello Ken
Thanks a lot for that very interesting information!
I´ll also study your webpage.
All the best from Vienna,
Herbert
_________________
Schilke 11C2
K&H Topline

[AverageJoe]

I cannot speak for Bach's current production process, and I appreciate Ken's input regarding what he has seen in his "surgeries" of various instruments. I can say that the horns have become MUCH more consistent over the last 5 years or so from a playability standpoint. Not quite where Yamaha is, but on the right path for sure. I used to manage a music store, and I teach there now...I have played all the horns that have come through the door there for the last 5 years, and Bach has improved a great deal in their consistency. It will take a while to live down the reputation that they developed through the '80's and '90's, though...

Paul Poovey
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"Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..."

[Mikeytrpt]

I think a way to see if Bach is becoming more consistant will be to see what they come up with to compete against the new Yamaha/Malone Artist Model C trumpet.

M.

[archer49d]

One thing that's really bad in terms of Bach is that they bought (in 2001 or 2002, according to Larry Seaver) enough brass to last for 6 years, simply because it came out to be cheaper. The issue here is that even if you were to keep it in correct humidity and temperature conditions, unworked brass will still corrode, so until that runs out the horns will be inconsistent from a material standpoint. The other problem you see is that Bach is making some 16,000 (you can even assume 12,000 in case their non-sequential s/n) Bach Strads and whatever amount of Conn V1s in their factories, compare that to Schilke's 1000 horns a year and you'll see what I'm getting at, also compare that to their pre Elkart production, approximatley 33,000 over 30 years, so again about 1000 a year. One other tidbit of information from Larry is that today modern environmental laws prevent brass from being treated with certain chemicals during the manufacturing process of the trumpet, and remarkably the sound of todays instruments will suffer compared to those of "old", now to my knowledge the same laws don't apply in Japan...

[Mikeytrpt]

I have no problem at all playing on equipment that is marked "Made in Japan" on it.

[Billy B]

With guys like Flip Oakes doing tweak jobs on Kanstuls, it would be interesting to se if someone could tweak the Bachs and sell them for $3400.
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Bill Bergren

[LittleRusty]

Mikey,

We never would have guessed. Maybe your Yammie posts on a Bach thread would have been a good clue.

[Mikeytrpt]

If Bach can make a horn as good as my new Yammie C, I will play it.

[archer49d]

I have no problem with Made in Japan stuff either, my point is that since they can use those old techniques their horns will actually benefit from it. I wasn't trying to take a tree-hugger approach to it.

[LittleRusty]

Herbert,

Good topic, I wish I did not have to wade through all of the off topic posts. Who cares if someone prefers Yammie or don't care about Japanese? The thread is about Bach manufacturing. Start a thread about the other if you want to post about it.

Your point about machines doing a lot of the work now is interesting. As I understand it most of the high end horns have a fair amount of hand labor involved in their manufacturing.

When I bought my Strad in 1972 people were looking for the hand made horns, not the machine made.n Machine made horns were considered inferior.

I am sure the processes have improved, but perhaps they are not there yet?

Also, perhaps hand working things stresses the materials in a different way produing a better product?

[puukka]

You will hate me for that.
When I started to play trumpet, YAMAHA produced motorcycles and all pro trumpets seemed to be made in U.S.A.
With that impression still in my mind I don´t feel comfortable, when I think of buying a YAMAHA, even I know, it´s complete bulls*it!
I also play guitar and I´d rather buy a Gibson or Fender instead of a YAMAHA but maybe that´s different.
I enjoy also the fact, that I know a lot of amateur saxophone players, they almost can´t play a tone straight but they MUST have Selmer saxophones.
Herbert
_________________
Schilke 11C2
K&H Topline

[old geezer]

I bought 5 or 6 Strads during the 80's looking for a good one. Then they were placed in a jig and soldered together almost always under tension. I am glad to hear the horn is improving. I was basing my opinion on the strads I had owned. I was always looking for that "good" one. A friend and I de-soldered one of mine trying to free it up. when we took off the brace closest to the bell the bell sprang out about 2 inches. we de-soldered the bell twisted it in the right direction rebent the braces to fit and that horn was wild. It was the brightest sounding horn I had ever played. it was so raucous I sold it to a high school kid for jazz band. old geezer Dave
_________________
L.A. Benge 2ML 16389
L.A. Benge 2MLP 11745
K. Allman 1414
Yamaha Mike Vax 450573
Yamaha 231 Flugel 15383
Olds Amb. Cornet 50734

[VM Trumpet]

Even from my breif encounters with Bachs, I would have to second the inconsistency. My freind recently purchased a Bach 72. It plays real nice I have to say but from an aesthetic point of view, I noticed during class one day there was some yellow stuff on the top valve caps, stems, and finger buttons. I looked at it closer and it was the yellow brass... it hadn't been plated properly! For a horn he spent about $1600 on, that's unacceptable. Luckily he got a warrranty...

-VM Trumpet
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Bb: Yamaha 8310Z
C: Yamaha 6445GHSII
Picc: Yamaha 9830S
Kanstul BMV 1 1/2C/10, W3S/RZR, Yamaha 11B4

[hose]

I think we all would have to agree--one can buy a good Bach today. It's just that the odds may be against us. We're talking dollars and profits here. Bach needs to make a profit and one factor of that is fast production. Another is keeping costs down. As long as they are able to sell enough horns to make their necessary profit, they don't need to change much . And with so many teachers blindly indoctrinating kds to "the name", Bach doesn't have to make that good of horn. The students will keep them in business. It is far more important to Bach's investors to make a profit than it is to make a high quality horn. The few of us out here that expect a quality product aren't that important to them.........at least not yet. Bach is pretty much a mass produced assembly line horn. The individual parts are mass produced and the assemblers don't/can't take time to look for parts that fit perfectly. We Bach bashers/complainers seem to be wanting hand crafted quality. Or at least a closely inspected product before it leaves the plant. One remedy suggested was to take your store bought Bach to a qualified tehnician and have it turned into a great horn. At the cost of doing that, why not just a buy a hand crafted horn?
_________________
Dave Wisner

Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet

[archer49d]

On the topic of machining, I can tell you from experience in the field that a skilled craftsman can produce a said part more precisley with greater consistency than any computer controlled machine, I know it seems impossible but it's true, as an example thats completley unrelated to trumpet manufacture take into account WWII, you had absolutley no computers running machines yet we were building things like battleships and aircraft carriers with completley manual labor, the reason computer control has taken over so much is instead of paying 15 craftsman to make a said part you pay 1 person like me the same salary to write a CNC program and tell the machine to repeat, it comes out to be a lot cheaper.

[swingintrpt]

First off: ALL mass produced pro horns (Yammies included) have some problems. Here's the real test: When the chips are down and you've got a Yammie 8335 next to a Bach 72 after they've both been gone over by a guy like Ken Larson, which one will play better? I've had the oppurtunity to make this comparison, and I have to say that both horns PLAYED almost exactly the same. I thought the sound on the Bach had a little more life in it, but a guy sitting next to me thought the same person sounded better on the Yammie. It's personal opinion, folks. I love my Bach Bb and I can honestly say I've never played a horn that can replace it, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to be biased against every other horn out there.

Old Geezer Dave:Wow! I've had similar experiences, but I found that if you take the whole horn apart, not just the bell, and actually test the brace positioning before you reassemble, you'll get a horn that can go from super dark to the most cutting lead horn ever. It sounds like your horn might have been suffering from more than just stressed assembly-I would guess it was WAY out of alignment (the valves). Anyways, hope you've got a horn you love!
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RJM
Examining the difference between
music and Music.

[bgwbold]

Another thing to remember is cost. 1600 dollars is indeed a lot to pay for a new horn, but you should expect to get a mass produced horn and not a custom horn for that kind of money. If you think that Yamaha makes a better mass produced horn than Bach, then buy a Yamaha.

Mike

[improver]

a Bach off the shelf is still the best horn you can buy.there are some bad ones. play a bunch of them youll find a great horn