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gregplo
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Joined: 08 Jan 2002
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Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| MJBTrumpet player wrote: | | I know I'm new here but I've been reading this forum sence 2002. I would feel more comfortable if a few well known long time members tried these horns and gave reviews. A hand full of newer people I've never heard of dosn't make me to want to put my money out there. I''m not saying they are not good horns or the people responding arn't telling the truth, but for my hard earned money I'd wait for some time till enough people gave them the thums up that's all. |
I picked up an AdVance Phase II from Vance to try, and fell in love with it immediately. The blow is very similar to my CarolBrass CTR-4344 (that is, open, but not too open), but the Phase II puts more sound out into the audience, and provides better feedback. I love the tone I get with all of my mouthpieces (ACB 5, ACB 3DS, Marcinkiewicz 4 and 5). Put some air through this horn and it brightens up nicely, yet it retains a full tone...it never gets "brittle" or too "edgey." Back off, and I'm able to blend well with the Bach Strad/Yamaha Xeno crowd. The valves took a little cleaning before they were smooth (it was a demo horn), but they are excellent now. The springs may be a little stiff for some folks, but using Flip Oakes method to lighten the spring action worked great.
I also have a Pasion, with the interchangeable leadpipes and bell. I got the one with the lighter bracing rather than the sheet bracing, and I play the more open (like a Bach 43) leadpipe. I've owned a Getzen Genesis in the past, and it was a great horn, but I couldn't blend with the other horns in a section. The Pasion, at least with the lighter bracing, is different in that it does blend well in a section. The valves came out of the case buttery smooth. I won't say it is a clone, but it is designed very similar to the Edwards Gen X. I will say that I'd personally like an even more open leadpipe in this horn...I'm going to see if Vance has anything more open, or with a faster taper. The folks who play Strad 37s have been split between liking the 25 and the 43 leadpipe.
I also have the Flugelhorn with the Copper Bell. I was concerned that the small bore was going to be a problem, but it plays beautifully...and looks great as well.
Everyone who has played any of these three horns has had nothing but good things to say about them.
If anyone is near Charlotte, NC, I'd be happy to let you try them...
_________________
Best Regards,
Greg
Jaeger Custom (Heavy Bell)
Stomvi Titan (Bellflex Bell)
Conn 61B
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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trombahonker
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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"We were able to tap into that resource through a carefully selected, Japanese co-owned overseas manufacturing facility"
Sounds very specifically like they are avoiding saying "Made in China." |
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gregplo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 506
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: | "We were able to tap into that resource through a carefully selected, Japanese co-owned overseas manufacturing facility"
Sounds very specifically like they are avoiding saying "Made in China." |
Actually, Vance doesn't avoid saying that at all:
"As for those who are guessing about my brand, most of the parts are made in China by a factory that was set up by a Japanese firm. "
_________________
Best Regards,
Greg
Jaeger Custom (Heavy Bell)
Stomvi Titan (Bellflex Bell)
Conn 61B
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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David Figge
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 18
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.andaluciami.com/media.html
Listen to these guys play...especially the Mitch Cooper rendition of the Incredibles, very cool. Oh, you can also watch Arturo fiddle around on the Andalucia Phase II, but I'm told he hangs out for the cigars as much as anything...
_________________
David Figge - "A decent player"
Andalucia of WI - High Brass Specialist
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trombahonker
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| gregplo wrote: |
Actually, Vance doesn't avoid saying that at all:
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I wonder how much the workers in that factory are making...maybe he knows? Probably not. There's a real issue with folks focusing on the "quality" of the horns, but turning a bling eye to the origin. Allora, Jean Baptiste, Carol Brass, this Andalucia, etc - I couldn't care less how well they play unless they can prove that their product line is respecting its employees. As if hiring a Japanese firm that is in charge of the Chinese plant makes it all okay.
But then again, nearly every company has stuff built in China, and this issue is strategically avoided. Sad, that is. Makes me appreciate Torpedo Bags for actually taking a stance.
~A
Last edited by trombahonker on Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: | | Jin Bao, Carol Brass, this Andalucia - I couldn't care less how well they play unless they can prove that their product line is respecting its employees. |
Carol Brass is in Taiwan, not China. It's not the same labor environment as mainland China at all. I'm sure their labor costs are lower than in Wisconsin or California, but it's not at all the same as the factories that crank out iPhones or cheap DVD players on the mainland.
Other than that, your point stands...
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trombahonker
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| You're right, I forgot about Jin Bao being Taiwanese. My mistake. |
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mm55
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:57 am Post subject: |
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CarolBrass is indeed in Taiwan, but like many other companies, some of their manufacturing is done in mainland China.
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David Figge
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Trombahonker says, "I couldn't care less how well they play unless they can prove that their product line is respecting its employees."
You really have no idea that the employees at this particular factory are disrepected or ill treated. What you have is an assumption, that they are not. Which I guess is why you said you'd want proof.
I wonder...do you (and everyone else who is reading this) hold every manufacturer of the items you own and buy daily to the same standard?
Take a look around your home (or your bandroom.) How many things that you use everyday, and wouldn't want to live without, your electronics, furnature, clothes, appliances, your toothbrush, deoderant, etc... what percentage of those items are from a 100% China free company? ( ...parts and labor included.) Hey, do any of you shop at Walmart? Have you EVER shopped at Walmart?
Why bash a product you have never tried becasue of where it's made? Bash a product if you must, because it is inferior in playability and craftsmanship, but at least try the horns before you give a prejudicial impression so you know what you're talking about. Then your opinion actually would have some weight.
I tried these horns because a fellow musician I respected asked me to. I'm glad he did. The fact (yes I said fact) that Arturo Sandoval likes the Andalucia brass line (he owns one) so much, he helps California schools get Andalucia musical instruments for their music programs so the kids have high quality instruments to play, well doesn't hurt the credability either.
FWIW Andalucia also has Kanstul making bells on a couple of their horns.
I would no more descriminate against a music company because of where it's from than I would another musician. Quality is quality, if a player can play, you gotta give respect. So I for one have no problem whatsoever with where the horns are made.
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Andalucia of WI - High Brass Specialist
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gregplo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 506
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| David Figge wrote: | Trombahonker says, "I couldn't care less how well they play unless they can prove that their product line is respecting its employees."
You really have no idea that the employees at this particular factory are disrepected or ill treated. What you have is an assumption, that they are not. Which I guess is why you said you'd want proof.
I wonder...do you (and everyone else who is reading this) hold every manufacturer of the items you own and buy daily to the same standard?
Take a look around your home (or your bandroom.) How many things that you use everyday, and wouldn't want to live without, your electronics, furnature, clothes, appliances, your toothbrush, deoderant, etc... what percentage of those items are from a 100% China free company? ( ...parts and labor included.) Hey, do any of you shop at Walmart? Have you EVER shopped at Walmart?
Why bash a product you have never tried becasue of where it's made? Bash a product if you must, because it is inferior in playability and craftsmanship, but at least try the horns before you give a prejudicial impression so you know what you're talking about. Then your opinion actually would have some weight.
I tried these horns because a fellow musician I respected asked me to. I'm glad he did. The fact (yes I said fact) that Arturo Sandoval likes the Andalucia brass line (he owns one) so much, he helps California schools get Andalucia musical instruments for their music programs so the kids have high quality instruments to play, well doesn't hurt the credability either.
FWIW Andalucia also has Kanstul making bells on a couple of their horns.
I would no more descriminate against a music company because of where it's from than I would another musician. Quality is quality, if a player can play, you gotta give respect. So I for one have no problem whatsoever with where the horns are made. |
+1
_________________
Best Regards,
Greg
Jaeger Custom (Heavy Bell)
Stomvi Titan (Bellflex Bell)
Conn 61B
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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jaysonr
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 797
Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| David Figge wrote: |
I tried these horns because a fellow musician I respected asked me to. I'm glad he did. The fact (yes I said fact) that Arturo Sandoval likes the Andalucia brass line (he owns one) so much, he helps California schools get Andalucia musical instruments for their music programs so the kids have high quality instruments to play, well doesn't hurt the credability either.
FWIW Andalucia also has Kanstul making bells on a couple of their horns.
I would no more descriminate against a music company because of where it's from than I would another musician. Quality is quality, if a player can play, you gotta give respect. So I for one have no problem whatsoever with where the horns are made. |
I can +1 to both of these statements -- I know that Arturo has given Andalucia instruments (not just trumpets either) to many school children in need through his organization the Arturo Sandoval Institute. He gives away way more than get publicized because he does it out of his love for music and his love for the kids -- he doesn't do it for publicity, so I mention it hesitantly. I know he has also used another brand of horns for this in the past, but I think he's mostly using Vance's horns now.
And also, yes Vance did have Kanstul put together some of his horns -- he has a very neat Soprano Bb bugle -- .470 bore, big shepherd's crook bell. I'd personally love one to put a Curry TC in and make a nice smooth jazz horn.
I've played one of Vance's horns. It was even one of his very early horns that he doesn't even sell anymore, and it played fine. I had a post further up that I "...'ed" out when this topic came alive again because it has some bad info on my part that I've learned better since, so I didn't want to mislead people with what I had written there.
I don't know Vance personally, but we've connected on Facebook mainly because of both of us being connected to Arturo. He seems like a great guy, with some good ideas for horn designs and I wish him all the best -- I've heard he has gotten some large school orders recently.
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trombahonker
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm definitely a hypocrite, we all are to some degree. My issue is that these instrument companies that turn to cheap labor markets then try to market them as if they are equal to instruments made in modernized countries. This is having an erosive, insidious effect on builders who choose to sustain top tier compensation of their artisans.
As consumers, we have this choice. Sure, I can buy an Andalucia or Carol Brass, or whatever knockoff trumpet that is a nice copy of a Van Laar, or Bach Strad, or Yamaha Xeno, but when I do it is making a statement about my willingness to support respectful employment. |
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David Figge
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 18
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: | Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm definitely a hypocrite, we all are to some degree. My issue is that these instrument companies that turn to cheap labor markets then try to market them as if they are equal to instruments made in modernized countries. This is having an erosive, insidious effect on builders who choose to sustain top tier compensation of their artisans.
As consumers, we have this choice. Sure, I can buy an Andalucia or Carol Brass, or whatever knockoff trumpet that is a nice copy of a Van Laar, or Bach Strad, or Yamaha Xeno, but when I do it is making a statement about my willingness to support respectful employment. |
But Trombahonker, these horns ARE equal, or dare I say better because of the little tweaks in design. I had been a Kanstul guy since the early 80's, Meha Besson, Signature 1500A, Stamm Besson, Eb/D. I switched, not because these horns were almost as good as Kanstul, I actually liked them better, and Kanstul makes great horns. I was always very happy with them -they're great.
What is cheap labor, cheap compared to what? Standards are realative to where you are. I live in a small town in WI. You can buy a pretty nice house for about $100k. I see the same style houses on those TV reality "buy it and flip it" type shows selling for $400k. Why, because of where they are. That doesn't mean the houses in my town aren't as good as the houses I see on the TV...it just means they cost less, So I guess in a way you could even say that makes them better because you get more house for your dollar.
My next question is about respectable employment. What does that even mean? Seriously what are you talking about Trombahonker?
Does it mean your work gives you a feeling of satisfaction, dignity, and pride? Does it mean you make enough money to feed your family, pay your bills and have hope for the future. If so, I have news for you friend. There are a lot of Americans who do not have respectful employment, and some of them may even work in factories...
I support respectful employment, I hope we all do, but your statement about supporting respectful employment infers the workers in the factory that makes these instruments are forced to work in dangerous and or prison like conditions almost for free. Trombahonker that is not true.
In a previous post you wondered what their wages are. Are they lower than in the US? I don't know but would imagine they are. I would also guess their cost of living is less. Again standards are relative to where you are.
Now, we're moving into a whole other type of discussion but it is pertinant to your comments... it might be, in part, because the Chinese workers are not in debt up to their ears like most Americans. They do not have to agressively fight for higher wages so they can pay for all their individual debt until finally their "respectful" wages make them no longer competetive in the global marketplace, and they watch all their jobs move to different countries.
Read this article about the difference between Chinese and American personal debt and quality of life. http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2010/06/24/one-big-difference-between-chinese-and-american-households-debt/
It takes less money to live if every penny you make doesn't fly out the window making interest payments on debt. In that respect we could learn a lesson from the Chinese.
In all honesty, I never meant to go on a crusade here, I just noticed the post about Andalucia horns, and seeing that I have played so many and own several I wanted to share my experience. Trombahonker if you do not want to try an Andalucia, do not want to buy an Andalucia - then don't. More for the rest of us...
In my opinion there are a lot of really great horns to choose from all over the world. Andalucia is certainly one of them. It's your money...spend it wisely.
_________________
David Figge - "A decent player"
Andalucia of WI - High Brass Specialist
Have Horns - Will Travel
Performance/Clinics/Lessons/Product Demos
866-647-7123
Last edited by David Figge on Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David Figge
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 18
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| David Figge wrote: | | trombahonker wrote: | Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm definitely a hypocrite, we all are to some degree. My issue is that these instrument companies that turn to cheap labor markets then try to market them as if they are equal to instruments made in modernized countries. This is having an erosive, insidious effect on builders who choose to sustain top tier compensation of their artisans.
As consumers, we have this choice. Sure, I can buy an Andalucia or Carol Brass, or whatever knockoff trumpet that is a nice copy of a Van Laar, or Bach Strad, or Yamaha Xeno, but when I do it is making a statement about my willingness to support respectful employment. |
But Trombahonker, these horns ARE equal, or dare I say, for some, possibly better because of the little tweaks in design, and the price. I had been a Kanstul guy since the early 80's, Meha Besson, Signature 1500A, Stamm Besson, Eb/D. I switched, not because these horns were almost as good as Kanstul, I actually liked them better, and Kanstul makes great horns. I was always very happy with them -they're great.
What is cheap labor, cheap compared to what? Standards are realative to where you are. I live in a small town in WI. You can buy a pretty nice house for about $100k. I see the same style houses on those TV reality "buy it and flip it" type shows selling for $400k. Why, because of where they are. That doesn't mean the houses in my town aren't as good as the houses I see on the TV...it just means they cost less, So I guess in a way you could even say that makes them better because you get more house for your dollar.
My next question is about respectable employment. What does that even mean? Seriously what are you talking about Trombahonker?
Does it mean your work gives you a feeling of satisfaction, dignity, and pride? Does it mean you make enough money to feed your family, pay your bills and have hope for the future. If so, I have news for you friend. There are a lot of Americans who do not have respectful employment, and some of them may even work in factories...
I support respectful employment, I hope we all do, but your statement about supporting respectful employment infers the workers in the factory that makes these instruments are forced to work in dangerous and or prison like conditions almost for free. Trombahonker that is not true.
In a previous post you wondered what their wages are. Are they lower than in the US? I don't know but would imagine they are. I would also guess their cost of living is less. Again standards are relative to where you are.
Now, we're moving into a whole other type of discussion but it is pertinant to your comments... it might be, in part, because the Chinese workers are not in debt up to their ears like most Americans. They do not have to agressively fight for higher wages so they can pay for all their individual debt until finally their "respectful" wages make them no longer competetive in the global marketplace, and they watch all their jobs move to different countries.
Read this article about the difference between Chinese and American money and quality of life. http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2010/06/24/one-big-difference-between-chinese-and-american-households-debt/
It takes less money to live if every penny you make doesn't fly out the window making interest payments on debt. In that respect we could learn a lesson from the Chinese.
In all honesty, I never meant to go on a crusade here, I just noticed the post about Andalucia horns, and seeing that I have played so many and own several I wanted to share my experience. Trombahonker if you do not want to try an Andalucia, do not want to buy an Andalucia - then don't. More for the rest of us...
In my opinion there are a lot of really great horns to choose from all over the world. Andalucia is certainly one of them. It's your money...spend it wisely. |
_________________
David Figge - "A decent player"
Andalucia of WI - High Brass Specialist
Have Horns - Will Travel
Performance/Clinics/Lessons/Product Demos
866-647-7123 |
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trombahonker
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:25 am Post subject: |
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I've considered all of your questions/arguments and I believe the answers still lead to my original concern.
I understand many of these instruments have a similar quality to western-built horns, but that does not make them "equal". The idea in these companies is to produce an instrument of high quality for significantly less money than western manufactuers, and this is done by bypassing the high labor costs that derive from the whole labor package - pensions, wages, health benefits, business/manufacturing taxes, etc.
Also, Forbes is just about the most conservative business magazine, and to emphasize the obvious, it's a magazine. It's slanted, anecdotal information from a source that "sounds like" something respectable. That article has a very clear agenda and bias. And it works; people read it, believe it, and feel better about our "cheaper is better" approach to undercutting businesses that support our way of living.
So yes, I'll avoid buying instruments by companies with this model. |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12706
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: |
I've considered all of your questions/arguments and I believe the answers still lead to my original concern.
I understand many of these instruments have a similar quality to western-built horns, but that does not make them "equal". The idea in these companies is to produce an instrument of high quality for significantly less money than western manufactuers, and this is done by bypassing the high labor costs that derive from the whole labor package - pensions, wages, health benefits, business/manufacturing taxes, etc.
Also, Forbes is just about the most conservative business magazine, and to emphasize the obvious, it's a magazine. It's slanted, anecdotal information from a source that "sounds like" something respectable. That article has a very clear agenda and bias. And it works; people read it, believe it, and feel better about our "cheaper is better" approach to undercutting businesses that support our way of living.
So yes, I'll avoid buying instruments by companies with this model. |
I hadn't really thought about the wage issue from David's viewpoint before, but if one thinks about it, it makes sense.
The key point for me is what I highlighted in TrombaHonker's post. We cannot simply apply our standard of living to other countries. If the wage being paid in a less developed country allows the worker to live comfortably then I see that as a fair wage. Even if it is considerably less than a US worker makes.
Yes, this will take away jobs from the US in the short term until the playing field levels. But those ignoring the difference in cost of living also show bias and an agenda. |
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David Figge
Regular Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 18
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Lastly ( I promise ...)
Andalucia horns are not sold in music stores, they are sold direct to the consumer through a dealer system. Of course the dealer makes a comission, as they should, but that bypasses an entire retail level in the supply chain. No retail mark up for overhead etc. That has to be a big factor in the affordability of the horns. That does not take away form the quality of the instruments. I would gladly play any of these horns in any venue for any audience.
Hey Trombahonker, I just want to say thank you. I respect your position, and your thoughtful exchange here. I think we both gave people some things to think about.
All the best, and have a happy Thanksgiving.
David
_________________
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Andalucia of WI - High Brass Specialist
Have Horns - Will Travel
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NachoChops
New Member
Joined: 09 May 2016
Posts: 2
Location: NorCal
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:15 am Post subject: Andalucia Sales |
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| Just ordered a Pasion with the stabilization plates. Corresponding directly with Vance was great. He answered all my questions matter of factly, and was clear with me about my options. I'm extremely impressed with that process. You can't beat the prices, and the horns are well received by everyone I've heard from. He's also coming out with a line of mouthpieces, which I'm even more excited about. His mantra of affordability without sacrificing quality is refreshing. I will follow this up with an in depth review when I receive the horn. Not expecting to be disappointed... |
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amymustijujitsumyma
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Joined: 11 Dec 2018
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| so? how was it? |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Zombie thread lives!
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
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Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
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