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JackD
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 1436
Location: London, England.
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 Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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I personally love my Bach Bb - it's one I purchased "off-the-shelf" about a year ago.
One thing I have noticed though - the slides may need some adjusting. I had to get the water dump slide tightened to stop it falling out, and I've only just manually adjusted the 1st valve slide (by pulling it gently apart with my hands) to get it really aligned and fast moving.
Other than that, no complaints from me at all. |
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Trumpet Dude
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 1030
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: The inconsitancy that haunts bach strads |
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| puukka wrote: | Hello friends
Iīm quite new in this great forum so I might ask something, what had been asked before. Sorry, if itīs like that!
I all the time read about the inconsitancy that haunts bach strads.
I wonder, what can make the difference between each piece?
The material is the same, the mandrels and the tools are the same. Isnīt it true, that more and more machines are doing the job, so inconsitancy should be minimal?
Regards,
Herbert |
Bahs ae made by molds and if the molds wear down or are simply replaces the horn changes.
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Tuningbell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 521
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | With guys like Flip Oakes doing tweak jobs on Kanstuls, it would be interesting to se if someone could tweak the Bachs and sell them for $3400. |
They do -- Laskey Conversion by Scott Laskey and BACHalone - By Bob Malone (probably not anymore since working with yamaha)
Jason Harrelson does some too!! |
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BigBadWolf
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 3091
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Tuningbell wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | With guys like Flip Oakes doing tweak jobs on Kanstuls, it would be interesting to se if someone could tweak the Bachs and sell them for $3400. |
They do -- Laskey Conversion by Scott Laskey and BACHalone - By Bob Malone (probably not anymore since working with yamaha)
Jason Harrelson does some too!! |
Don't forget Ken Larson.
Kevin |
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Tuningbell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 521
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| TrumpetDude -- I think you need to rethink your post.. Nothing on a bach is moulded ... Bells are made on mandrels and hand hammered and spun just like all good horns!!! The problem is 50 different people make bells they all do it a little different, 50 people make valves each a little different, 10 guys make braces etc etc etc ... If you are a professional and have the right to have a one off made by a special bell person, the best valve person, the best leadpipe maker, adjust the gap before you leave I think you are seeing my point you would have a great Bach. The V1's are so good because their is one bell maker, one valve guy, etc.. As they hire more people to fill demand the horns will change. When Bach, Benge Callichio were one man shops the horns were made and tested by a very small few.. That is why those horns are so good.. |
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Lawler Bb
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Joined: 27 Jan 2002
Posts: 1143
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Billy,
You can buy "tweaked" Bachs for $3000 or more. They are Malone and Laskey conversions. I've got one. Ken Larson does some conversions and tweaking. Charlie Melk can do extensive tweaking and/or a conversion as well. Come to think of it, all my Bachs are "tweaked": a Malone conversion and two Melk modified horns.
Ok, someone beat me to it! Nevermind.
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Eric Sperry
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BigBadWolf
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Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 3091
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Lawler Bb wrote: | Billy,
You can buy "tweaked" Bachs for $3000 or more. They are Malone and Laskey conversions. I've got one. Ken Larson does some conversions and tweaking. Charlie Melk can do extensive tweaking and/or a conversion as well. Come to think of it, all my Bachs are "tweaked": a Malone conversion and two Melk modified horns. |
I just have to agree. Most of the people that I know with Bachs (me included) have sunk hundreds (or thousands) more into their stock Bachs to make them even better. While you do have to look for a good Bach off the rack, you can have many small things done to your horn to make it excellent.
Kevin |
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Tuningbell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 521
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| One more thing -- the thing that did the Strad into a sad state was its popularity and demand... If Selmer only made 1000 per year they could probably charge 3000.00/horn or maybe more, like the new Yamaha is being sold. Lets say they make $1500 profit at yamaha per 9445CHS = 1,500,000 gross profit Over at Selmer on the strad because every teacher suggests one they sell 12,000/year at $1500 Lets assume the profit is again 50% or 750.00 = 9,000,000 NINE MILLION DOLLARS -- Sure Bach could put a custom shop together and I'll bet people would pay $3000.00+ for a horn made by the best people at Selmer.. I bet they will and that is how they will compete with Yamaha. Getzen has a custom shop already!! Now here is the thing why should they change anything if they sell those 12,000 mediocre strads with a few gems thrown in by accident and make 9,000,000 dollars... This is a big bussiness decision not and artistic decision -- Look at it like this there are 50 states each state has 100 high schools that is 5,000 schools in the USA that means I need to sell 3 strads in each school to sell my production.. These are made up numbers but you get the idea. There is enough demand for the Strad that they will not be forced to improve it until Yamaha, Schilke, Besson, Marcinkiewicz, Monette etc steal enough of the market and Selmer has a surplus of Strads. Interestin how yamaha started with the C instead of a Bb, actually there seem to be no plans to make a Bb artist by Yamaha at this time. Probably because they sell enough 8445RGS trumpets and the Strad is still the best selling pro trumpet. |
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veldkamp
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Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 668
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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I played a Sterling Bell for a couple of years, some of my colleagues still play them. I thought they were build in the Bach pro shop. They all play great, no tuning problems etc.
I sold mine because my Mt.Vernon plays even better. I was really lucky to buy it unseen of eBay... 
Check my Bachsite : http://home.zonnet.nl/velde01/
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Tuningbell
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Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 521
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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The bach strad due to its demand has too many craftsman working on each horn.. If Selmer has 50 employees making strads it is possible that 30 people make one horn.... If they changed the situation and cross traind people into groups or teams you could have 10 excellent teams making strads (5 person teams) Bell maker, Valve Maker, Assembler, Fitter, Final Assembly... You get the idea -- Now you might have 5 variations of strad quality instead of the GAZILLIONS of QC issues out there and you would be able to track and train each team to get better and better... Effective making each team its own custom horn shop.. Again Conn makes the V1 this way and Fred Powell is now working with Selmer on the Strads hopefully this is what he is doing. If I worked at Selmer, I would have done this ages ago but they never hired me  |
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Mikeytrpt
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Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 5028
Location: Richfield, Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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TuningBell, Yamaha is currently working on a prototype Artist model Bb. I have heard the prototypes are as good as the C trumpets. No word yet on when they will be available...........
Mike |
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archer49d
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Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: Quality |
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| If Selmer has 50 people making 16000 Strads a year from a manufacturing standpoint the problem isn't in the people, it's in the volume. |
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riffdawg2000
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 1153
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Tuningbell wrote: | | Interestin how yamaha started with the C instead of a Bb, actually there seem to be no plans to make a Bb artist by Yamaha at this time. Probably because they sell enough 8445RGS trumpets and the Strad is still the best selling pro trumpet. |
Hmmmmm ... where did YOU get your information?? I Played the prototype Artist Bb @ ITG in Denver. Bob Malone told me that the Bb model is expected out about a year after the C. Price point will be about the same.
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Rich G
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Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 2998
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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The best Strad I ever played was a '70's Elkhart 72*. It was far superior to the often eulogized and venerated Bronx 37 and Mt Vernon 37* Strads that I owned. However, I have been disappointed in the fitting of parts of many current Strads. Several recent Strads I've looked at show a poor fit of the tuning slide. Remove the tuning slide entirely and then try to replace it by simply sliding it back in. (With Schilke's this is no problem, they will align perfectly). There's a good chance the Strad tuning slide and sleeve won't align properly unless you squeeze the end of the slide gently to tuck it back into the leadpipe sleeve - creating tension.
Yet, from my perspective, the hunt for the elusive "perfect" Strad is worth the effort, because if/when you find it, you will understand why they are so revered.
For what it's worth, prewar French Besson's were also notorious for uneven workmanship, with braces sometimes falling off while playing them. Yet, to many, the prewar Bessons are the "holy grail" of trumpets. |
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_dcstep
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 6324
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Few things about Bach |
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| archer49d wrote: | | One thing that's really bad in terms of Bach is that they bought (in 2001 or 2002, according to Larry Seaver) enough brass to last for 6 years, simply because it came out to be cheaper. The issue here is that even if you were to keep it in correct humidity and temperature conditions, unworked brass will still corrode, so until that runs out the horns will be inconsistent from a material standpoint. |
Many years ago I was a sheet metal worker. I think that buying metal in quantity will lead to more consistancy, not less. The owner of the shop where I worked purchased several tons of sheet copper when the prices dropped low for a short period. I was only there for four years, but the copper stayed nice and bright the whole time, even though it was in the high humidity of Jacksonville, FL. The reason it stayed fresh was that a light coating of oil is applied as the sheets are cut. I suspect that it good stay in this state for many years without deterioration.
The quality and consistancy of the metal is more of an issue than the age of the metal at the time of product construction.
Dave
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archer49d
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Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Few things about Bach |
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| dcstep wrote: | | archer49d wrote: | | One thing that's really bad in terms of Bach is that they bought (in 2001 or 2002, according to Larry Seaver) enough brass to last for 6 years, simply because it came out to be cheaper. The issue here is that even if you were to keep it in correct humidity and temperature conditions, unworked brass will still corrode, so until that runs out the horns will be inconsistent from a material standpoint. |
Many years ago I was a sheet metal worker. I think that buying metal in quantity will lead to more consistancy, not less. The owner of the shop where I worked purchased several tons of sheet copper when the prices dropped low for a short period. I was only there for four years, but the copper stayed nice and bright the whole time, even though it was in the high humidity of Jacksonville, FL. The reason it stayed fresh was that a light coating of oil is applied as the sheets are cut. I suspect that it good stay in this state for many years without deterioration.
The quality and consistancy of the metal is more of an issue than the age of the metal at the time of product construction.
Dave |
When brass is exposed to air it will tarnish quickly and turn brown (note the color of cheap slides on Student trumpets when their new and when a few years old). Brass deterioration is known as Patina, only polishing it over removes patina, or treating it with oil while in storage (reapply ever 2-3 weeks in the midwest summers). The process from which Patina originates begins withing hours of it being polished, so over a few years, your looking at a lot of polishing stored brass. That's just the beginning of it. |
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Tom LeCompte
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Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 3341
Location: Naperville, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| JackD wrote: | | I had to get the water dump slide tightened to stop it falling out |
A simpler solution is to add a tiny dab of Hetman's Ultra Slide grease to the grease on that slide. A little goes a long way. |
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mafields627
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Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 3784
Location: AL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| swingintrpt wrote: | | First off: ALL mass produced pro horns (Yammies included) have some problems. Here's the real test: When the chips are down and you've got a Yammie 8335 next to a Bach 72 after they've both been gone over by a guy like Ken Larson, which one will play better?
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The thing is, not everyone can afford to send a horn to Larson, or Melk, or Tanabe to get it gone over for the same amount you just paid for it. Getting a horn off the shelf that is put together correctly and plays well (not great, just well) is not too much to ask. It might not even be too much to ask for horns that play great. As long as Bach's reputation remains one of inconsistency, their main sales base will be high school kids. I know that I was peddled one in high school because that was THE horn too have. Too bad, because I'm stuck with it now in college. I hope one of Charlie Melk's leadpipes will help.
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No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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swingintrpt
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Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Posts: 1889
Location: Orange County
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| mafields627 wrote: | | swingintrpt wrote: | | First off: ALL mass produced pro horns (Yammies included) have some problems. Here's the real test: When the chips are down and you've got a Yammie 8335 next to a Bach 72 after they've both been gone over by a guy like Ken Larson, which one will play better?
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The thing is, not everyone can afford to send a horn to Larson, or Melk, or Tanabe to get it gone over for the same amount you just paid for it. Getting a horn off the shelf that is put together correctly and plays well (not great, just well) is not too much to ask. It might not even be too much to ask for horns that play great. As long as Bach's reputation remains one of inconsistency, their main sales base will be high school kids. I know that I was peddled one in high school because that was THE horn too have. Too bad, because I'm stuck with it now in college. I hope one of Charlie Melk's leadpipes will help. |
Don't buy any pipes yet. Have Ken Larson just take it apart and reassmble it. Alot of the guys on my last job hated Bachs because "They're stuffy and out of tune." and every one of them offered to buy my horn for about $500 more than I have into it. All I had Ken do was take it apart and straighten everything out. His website is www.brasswerks.com I believe. Tell him Ryan Merrill from USC said that he was the guy to talk to. AMAZING work.
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swingintrpt
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Location: Orange County
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, I don't remember exactly what Ken charged me, but I think it was between $500 and $600. COMPLETELY worth the money. Plays as well as a colleague's Malone re-assembly.
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RJM
Examining the difference between
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