Air speed

comebackkid · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:46 pm Post subject:

I think that most (clearly not all) would agree that controlling pitch is a matter of balancing lip tension, air support, and tongue level. That being said, it is reasonable to assume that players will emphasize those three variables differently. Less emphasis on one variable will simply require more emphasis on another.

If a player places less priority on air support, he will need to compensate with more emphasis on lip tension and/or tongue levels.

If a player places less priority on tongue levels, he will need to compensate with more emphasis on lip tension and/or air support.

Many great players like Herbert L. Clarke have found that minimizing the reliance on lip tension was the most efficient route for them, allowing them to play with the greatest ease an instrument that can be quite challenging.

My own experience is that many years of focusing on lip tension got me an average amateur range. By shifting the focus to tongue level and air support, I gained 1-1/2 octaves in a matter of months. I hope others will experience this kind of success!

It seems that success in the upper register is illusive to most. That is unfortunate, as it seems to make everything easier; even if you aren't bringing solos up 8va. It is nice not tensing as the e-flat approaches in Haydn's Trumpet Concerto. It's just another note that is WELL below your max. Also, once your range has expanded, the notes seem "closer together." This makes things that are technically challenging seem less so, regardless of register.

The ultimate goal of course, is to find what works for each of us. I believe I have learned what works. I KNOW I have learned what works for ME!

I know there are people out there that have a different view on how things work. That's fine. If you have another view, and it brings you the results you want, Keep it up. If, however, you are still searching, I encourage you to follow in the footsteps of Clarke, Gordon, and so many others. You might be very pleasantly surprised how easy playing in the upper register can become in a VERY short period of time.

[ This Message was edited by: comebackkid on 2002-02-18 15:50 ]

fzr Phil · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:36 pm Post subject:

Good comeback, Comeback kid!
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Jeff Lambardino · Regular Member Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81

comebackkid · Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2002 10:26 pm Post subject:

Hi Jeff,

Did I use a "method" with regards to the lips? No....Just concentrated on contracting toward the center.

You ask what my range was back then....
E above high c. Beyond that was an occasional squeakin' f.

Now I can get to g above double c (and higher) daily. The few times I have put in the effort for a max high, I got to tripple C. I assume I could do that most days, but I don't like to push it. I like to try to be efficient. I do wander if that is the right way to look at it though. Maybe if I put in maximum effort daily, I would get even higher.

Well I don't think I will try hard to get any higher. I have all the other areas of trumpet playing to improve upon. Everything else needs to catch up! Speaking of which, time to hit the Clark Technical Studies.

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:00 ]

Jeff Lambardino · Regular Member Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81

_Don Herman · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2002 11:03 pm Post subject:

Well I hesitate to bring this topic to the top again, I finally found the reference I wanted. It's from Arnold Jacobs: Song and Wind, by Brian Frederiksen (ed. by John Taylor), pp. 152-153. I'll pull a few lines...
---
Dynamics

The velocity of the air stream varies with dynamics. In soft playing, the air stream is slow, for loud playing, the air stream is fast.

For dynamics, a musician must be concerned with the velocity of the air, not air pressure.

If you were to blow fast air you would get louder.
---

So, Arnold Jacobs equates air speed with dynamics, not pitch. In other places, he equates air pressure with pitch, and lip tension. BTW, anyone who thinks Jacobs didn't know embouchures inside out, ain't familiar with the man and his teachings. And before anybody asks did I know him, nope. I wish! I know him through his writings, a couple of books, and my teacher was a student of his.

Don't know why I'm putting out this flamebait; reckon I felt it was something ya' oughta' know. More likely, I hate not closing a loose end (when I couldn't think of the reference I was using for my earlier analogies and other various and sundry dribble).

Toodles! - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 12:29 am Post subject:

Don,

This thread is just becoming more and more interesting by the minute. So it would appear that the Chicago School and the Caruso camp have a very similar view of how air speed functions in sound production.

Yes, I think it would be fair to characterize Mr. Jacobs as having more that a rudimentary sense of how the air works in a brass player's embouchure.

CR

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[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-03-09 09:43 ]

_Don Herman · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 6:36 am Post subject:

My contention is that Mr. Jacobs knew the mechanics as well as anatomy and airflow. Elsewhere, he relates that he uses "wind" rather than "pressure" because wind implies movement, which is required for sound production, Air pressure can be static (my example -- there's pressure inside an aerosol can, but until you push the button it's static).

Certainly if you make your aperture smaller while blowing the same amount of air (volumetric mass density, if you prefer), the airspeed must increase to maintain that quantity and a pressure differential results. How do you sustain the pressure differential, when the energy has to go somewhere? I'd say, tighten your lips (go higher), or increase the amplitude of vibration (get louder).

Research shows that the actual volume of air decreases as we ascend, but the air pressure increases. As a matter of fact, any brass player playing the same enharmonic note (i.e., same pitch) will exhibit roughly the same pressure. In other words, if I, a French horn, and trombone player all play the same pitch, we'll all have the same internal pressure, though the airflow will be different.

I maintain my belief that thinking "faster" works because as we tighten our lips in response to the faster air they vibrate at a higher pitch. OTOH, if we think "louder" we again blow more air, but without tightening our chops.

This whole thread smacks of over analysis, imho. While the musician in me abhors it, the engineer laps it up. Hopefully, here at the computer and maybe in practice (part of the time) the engineer can have fun; in performance and musical practice the musician had better be in charge!

As an aside, I wonder if we can actually blow faster air without tensing our chops to hold it back? Are we perhaps opening the aperture to allow more vibrating area as we tense to maintain the same pitch while getting louder? I feel like this is what I do.

Probably past time to turn my muddled brain off!

See ya' - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 7:10 am Post subject:

Don,

"As an aside, I wonder if we can actually blow faster air without tensing our chops to hold it back? Are we perhaps opening the aperture to allow more vibrating area as we tense to maintain the same pitch while getting louder? I feel like this is what I do. "

You have, of course, hit right on what the issue is, that seems to be constantly overlooked by the fast air campers. I would rather think in terms of vibrating mass as opposed to aperture. It requires more tension/control/effort from the facial muscles to maintain a vibrating mass (the amount of lip tissue that is vibrating) at greater amplitude than it does at less amplitude. And this would be true also to increase the pitch. As vibrating mass decreases, the pitch goes up (much like shortening a string on a violin. Same tension, shorter string, higher pitch. But the shorter string is really a reduction in the mass that is vibrating and more relevant to the issue of pitch change than the fact that the length is changing, so I am told. It seems to be more appropriate to view the aperture change in the lips as a result of the vibrating mass being reduced.

If you maintain the same mass you can vary the aperture by blowing the air faster. The result will be a louder pitch, BUT the same one. The vibrating mass stays the same, but it vibrates over a greater area. This has been induced by the increased air speed. If the facial muscles act to reduce the vibrating mass, the pitch will change and go higher. If the air pressure is not increased to maintain the same air speed, the volume will reduce.

CR

_Don Herman · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 8:28 pm Post subject:

comebackkid · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 9:44 pm Post subject:

We have definitely spent a lot of time debating which came first....The chicken (air speed)...or the egg (lip tension).

I Guess the common ground has been found. Clearly you can have no chickens without eggs. Clearly you can have no eggs without chickens.

Does Increased air speed necesitate greater lip tension? Does increased lip tension necesitate greater air speed?

I will be more than happy to just acknowlege that they are both important, and interrelated. Why continue to worry which came first?

What great theropy this has been!

Thanks Guys!

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:29 pm Post subject:

Don,

"I don't think Charly does either -- I seem to recall him making a statement to that effect some time ago. "

Your recollection is correct. I do not ever think about what is going on with my lips, facial muscles AND air stream or wind while playing music. The same holds mostly true for practicing as well. The KEY to developing your embouchure is DON'T THINK!!!!!

But that does not, in an way, preclude the appropriateness of seeking to understand the mechanics of what is taking place in the embouchure. And this search does not in any way impact the embouchure negatively. You train chops to play and then you try to figure out what is happening.

I'm with you, I wanna know how it works, beside being able to make it work.

Regards,

Charly

tom turner · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 6:46 am Post subject:

Hi,

Gee, a lot of my "cyberbuddies" have gotten in on this technical debate . . . yet I rarely speak on these prolonged debates about achieving mechanical perfection. Now I'll tell you why I don't establish a reputation of a "Technical Tom" . . . and its a sad, sad story indeed.

As one passes 40 years of age something terrible happens to your eyes . . . and, DARN IT, I cain't see well enough anymore to even SEE those hairs, much less SPLIT 'em! Gosh, at my age the hairs most of us have remaining are either turning grey . . . or turning loose!

Yes, it is important to understand the mechanics . . . and equally important to practice to where you don't have to think about the mechanical anymore when playing so one can create music vs. playing boring notes.

Sincerely,

Tom (gettin' blinder every day) Turner

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2002-03-10 09:47 ]

histrumpet · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:38 am Post subject:

The key to developing the embouchure is don't think. Ok, I can agree with that just exercise the muscles but..... you have to establish the embouchure set up before you can develop it. Embouchures are like opinions, everyone has one no matter how much they are alike of different. Breathing is a naturally occuring function, God saw to that, can't improve much on what God created. Man has already proved that.

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:57 am Post subject:

Bruce,

"you have to establish the embouchure set up before you can develop it."

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but if you mean that you have to do something specific with your lips BEFORE starting a note than the answer is yes. You must,

1. put the mouthpiece in contact with the lips
2. put tension on the lips for the note to be played. (The correct way to achieve this tension is to imagine that you are spitting a thread off your lips. Sometimes this is referred to as the spit buzz. This is also the reason that lip buzzing routines may be helpful in getting that basic "feel" of what your lips should be doing to produce a sound.)
3. position the jaw properly. This should happen more or less intuitively.
4. angle the instrument properly. I like the feel of even distribution of pressure on both lips with a straight out horn.
5. blow the air.

These things require purposeful action on your part and may be discussed individually. (For example, the whole wet/dry issue relates to #1, putting the mouthpiece on the lips.) But once these 5 movements are completed, you are very near the end of thinking when it comes to sound production. It is from this point that you train this "set up" to produce a tone in all registers, at all dynamic levels and with all articulations.

That's really all there is to it!

Regards,

Charly