Onstage EQ and reverb!

[PhxHorn]

I had a conversation with a sax player after a gig recently. We were talking about what a drag it is when the soundman (if any) doesn't know how to EQ horns and you end up sounding all mid-rangy like a sock was stuffed down your bell. We were thinking that it would be nice for us horn players to have our own EQ and reverb units right there onstage so we could get ourselves sounding the way we want before the signal ever gets to the soundman, so as not to rely on the soundman so much. I'm not talking about foot pedals, I mean more like rack units, I think, but portability would be nice.

So I've got a few questions:

Can you get an all-in-one unit that will do EQ, reverb, and maybe a bit of compression?

If so, is it possible to have separate EQ and reverb settings for more than one person? Or do you need more than one unit?

I've tried the little 6-channel mixer amps with the basic treble/bass/verb knobs (you know, the things that are about the size of a trumpet case) and I've not been very impressed with the results, and I don't know that I really need amplification. I'm just looking for a portable way to separately control EQ/reverb/cmpression for each member of a two-or-three piece horn section, and then be able to send those signals via XLR cables to the soundman.

Down the road, it would be nice to be able integrate this equipment with in-ear monitors, too.

Recommendations would be appreciated!

[FatPauly]

One of the members of my band plays acoustic guitar and flute and sings. He has rigged up a little belt with an Alesis Nanoverb in it. This way he can just look down and adjust the settings. I am not sure exactly how he has it all wired up, but if you are interested, I can find out. Caveat - he has a PhD in Electrical Engineering and holds several patents, so I trust whatever he has going on there is quite novel!

BTW - in recording, a box that contains a preamp + EQ + compressor is called a Channel Strip or Voice Channel. Several manufacturers make these, and prices range from about $200 to about $7000. I can't recall any that have reverb/effects built in, since these are typically performed by external boxes in a studio.

I think you might have a bit of a challenge controlling your own sound. In the live environment, it is difficult to monitor your sound, and so, if you try to adjust some parameter, you may find your soundman has to undo your work to maintain a good FOH balance.

- Paul Artola
Ellicott City, Maryland
2nd Class Geek in More Toys Than Talent
http://www.moretoysthantalent.com


[ This Message was edited by: fatpauly on 2003-06-11 23:46 ]

[_Don Herman]

There are other posts on this subject -- search through here a bit. I agree with Paul's points, however, having done sound myself for a bit. The soundman will likely make you sound like he thinks you should sound like no matter what you do. I'd try a couple of things, if he's a nice guy (approachable, amenable, etc.), in private (arrange a meeting well -- like an hour -- before the gig, or well before a practice session -- protect his credibility!):

1. Bring a recording (CD) of a trumpet player you'd like to sound like and let him hear what a trumpet should sound like, then;

2. Play for him, sans mics, and let him hear what you sound like naturally.

Making friends with your soundman can help a lot.

FWIW, HTH, blah blah blah (disclaimers no end) - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[PhxHorn]

There are other posts on this subject -- search through here a bit.

Before posting, I went back 5 or 6 pages and couldn't find anything that looked like relevant. What did I miss? I'll try again, thanks.

The soundman will likely make you sound like he thinks you should sound like no matter what you do.

In my experience the soundman does little or nothing to the sound of the horns--they're too busy messing with the drums and vocals and they pretty much do the horns at the last second. I've experienced this on some pretty big gigs, and it seems to be universal. IF there is a soundcheck, the horns are squeezed in at the last second and barely have time to make sure the mic actually works, let alone talk about EQ or reverb. I'm playing more and more casuals (weddings and corporate parties) in large ballrooms that seat hundreds of people, with bands that just mix the sound from the stage with a little rack unit. The soundman seems to be a thing of the past in many gig situations that I play, and competent soundmen are rare indeed.

If there is a real live soundcheck on a casual, it usually takes place two or three hours before the gig and I'm just not willing to show up that early if I don't have to. Chances are, they'll be using an onstage rack system to run sound anyway. If there is a soundman and I'm able to give him the sound I want, at least he won't have to do much and hopefully won't be tempted to undo everything.

1. Bring a recording (CD) of a trumpet player you'd like to sound like and let him hear what a trumpet should sound like, then;

Trying to actually track down the soundman (when there is one) is tough to do before the soundcheck, and I really don't care to show up early on the off chance he is actually near the board with time to kill.

2. Play for him, sans mics, and let him hear what you sound like naturally.

Ha! You assume he can be tracked down before the gig, that there are no speeches taking place that prohibit playing before the actual performance, and that he would be willing to listen.

Making friends with your soundman can help a lot.

Yes, but the phrase "your soundman" assumes that I'll be seeing the same person on a regular basis. That is pretty rare these days unless you play for a house band at a club. Even then, different people show up every week and they rarely know what they're doing.

I saw a TOP show a few years ago, and they hired a local soundman. The horns sounded like CRAP, and after one song they stopped and yelled at the soundman for ten minutes. I later read an article by one of the TOP trumpeters who said he had to sit down with his soundman and play him CDs so they would understand the sound that he was looking for. If TOP can't get competent people, I think a local gig whore like myself might as well forget about it.

I'm convinced that trying to explain anything to a soundman is futile, and that I'd be better off giving him the sound I want. If I somehow missed an old post on equipment, feel free to point it out, but equipment advice is what I'm looking for rather than advice on how to explain subtlety to a guy who is used to mixing heavy metal bands!

[pfrank]

An amusing post. Don's comments seemed to me to be a bit Polliana-ish, or maybe the way things are done out in the middle of the country where everyone is nice and relaxed. But come to think of it, it was in Columbus Ohio that the club sound man told us he had just "gotten off heroin" and he "felt like **** so don't expect much tonight." The place also had those cloth towels that circle around so you're never using a clean towell. Yuck.

There are allot of equipment options for on-stage control of your signal. I don't know of a single unit that could handle a section of horns other than a studio mixer with seperate parametric eq and multiple send-returns for each reverb setting, and seperate outputs to the board so everyone isn't on the same channel of the PA. That's allot of stuff to have on stage. And sound checks are always different that when a place is packed with people. Unless you can jump offstage, you have no idea what you sound like. The best you can hope for is your own monitor system sounds right.

A pre-amp and equalization are the most important (don't need compression with a pre-amp) and I prefer a slight slap back delay over reverb, but I'm talking about rock loud vollumes, not society gigs. I use an Ampeg B100 combo (has a tweeter and a 15 inch) tilted for on-stage monitoring. I eq before the amp and at the amp preamp and send a signal direct from the amp's XLR out. Otherwise, it's a crap shoot much as you describe.

Go to Musician's Friend or someplace like that. Stay away from rack mounted units designed for guitar or vocals.

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2003-06-12 14:56 ]

[ALLCHOPS]

Get some in ear monitors (Sure 600 series w/ E-1 or E-5 Ear Buds) You won't believe what you've been missing and you'll never go back to regular monitors again. They will alow you to have your own mix as well as tone. For the most part if you keep the EQ flat your good to go.


Tony

[Karel]

PhxHorn,

This is so true what you said!! Eighty-percent of my playing is in hornsections of soul/blues/rock bands and all those things you mentioned are not new for me. But as you said, is there any equipment on the market to let us sound natural on stage??

Karel.

[_Don Herman]

Alright, I assumed a band scene (I did sound for bands, plus some board work back in the dark ages when I was mastering great big black (usually) circles of vinyl...) where you were working with your soundman -- sorry!

For the club scene, I agree it's a mess. The answer to your quest becomes "how much do you want spend?" I'll guess on the low side for now -- if you had unlimited budget, you probably wouldn't need to ask! I'm not aware of a combo EQ/reverb/compressor unit, but a lot of effects units have enough to do the job (minimal EQ in a reverb, and might have to look for a built-in compressor -- Lexicon has 'em, among others). Nor have I looked much recently, since I haven't done a club date in twenty years or so. You may have to buy a seperate mic pre, as most of the cheaper (les expensive) and even more powerful effects units don't handle mic inputs (line or guitar; really exensive ones assume you've got an equally expensive mic pre on hand). If you are using separate settings for more than one person, you'll have to have a channel for each. There are lots of stereo processors out there, so a stereo mic pre and stereo effects will give you two channels fairly cheaply.

A Lexicon reverb (MX100/MPX1 or similar) with a cheap (Presonus, ART) preamp will give you some control, though you may still need more EQ -- all under $500, hopefully.

Alesis also makes the Ineko ($150), which you could use with a preamp ($150) but I'm not sure what all's in it. Ditto the $200 MidiVerb4 -- lots of effects, but I didn't look at the spec shhet to see what EQ it offers, and again don't think there's a mic pre in it (add an ART or Blue Tube, $150).

There're some nice (and expensive) units by Eventide, Focusrite, Manley, Lexicon, TC Electronic, etc.

You could look through sites like Sweetwater Sound (www.sweetwater.com), Musicians Friend, AMS, Guitar Center, etc. to see what's available. Sweetwater's prices have crept up, but they still have about the most knowledgable sales staff I've heard, fwiw.

I've used the Blue Tube and Lexicon units, and they are pretty nice (excellent for the money, imo). Of course, the Avalon preamps and TC processors aren't bad...

The posts I referred too may well be pretty old; Tom Turner has discussed his rack setup, and several of us have debated mics and equipment over the years. Honestly, I have had mixed success with searches, so can't blame you there -- at least you tried!

Sorry for the offense/misunderstanding, hth, etc. - Don

p.s. Here's a thread with Tom's setup described:
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=271&forum=3
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2003-06-12 15:03 ]

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 13:45 ]

[PhxHorn]

No offense taken! I should have put a smiley or two in my post. I appreciate all the info.

As for in-ear monitors, I used these for the first time this past weekend on a what was one of the biggest gigs I've done to date--DVD shoot, 32-track recording, etc--a huge production. But, the monitor soundmen didn't even have reverb available to the horn players, and what we were hearing in the Shure earpieces was pretty awful. One trumpet player also does sound, and spent a few minutes trying to help the soundguys EQ the trumpets and it still sounded bad. (No, it wasn't us!) The equipment they had just wouldn't do the job, and it was probably a $500K production! We spent FIVE hours sitting around while they soundchecked the rest of the band, and barely had time to check the trumpets and run *two* numbers before the noise ordinance shut us down for the night. The next day, there was barely time for a run-thru of the show before the house opened, so once again the horns got the short end of the soundcheck.

To make things worse, they provided us with Shure wireless mics and beltpacks, which were just horrible. The Shure mics are poorly designed, like the guy who put it together had never played a gig in his life. The screw-on gooseneck and clamp-on mechanisms were crap, the mic (mounted on a swivel) kept falling off to one side or another, and the cable was way too long and heavy for the application.

I've been using an ACG clip-on mic (the one with the XLR plug that requires phantom power-- the ther model with the 9-volt beltpack doesn't seem to give a strong signal) for ten years now and couldn't recommend it more. I've heard board tapes and it sounds great on the rare occasions that the soundman is cool. So at least I've got one piece of equipment that does the job, and can offer a recommendation back at ya.

One last thing: I can relate to the story of the just-got-off-heroin soundman. I played a club date in San Diego a few years back, and the bartender said, "the soundman gets out of jail this afternoon, so he should be here in time for the gig!"

[ This Message was edited by: PhxHorn on 2003-06-12 15:40 ]

[pfrank]

KISS: Keep it simple, stupid.
Good god- in ear monitor? I look forward that that in heaven, but here on earth in a downtown rock club, I'd rather not have a piece of equipment hanging on me, I Need to hear the acoustic/electric on-stage sound and the thought of a soundman controling what goes in my ear is just scarey! Also, NO RADIOS onstage for me! Lighting systems pay havoc with radio waves, and I would expect a disaster. I've seen bands spend hours on a soundcheck, and they have so much equipment that something is guaranted to go wrong by the law of complexity...(think of the space shuttle) And I've seen commando-like groups set up in 15 minutes, and really make contact with people.

The new wave, the cutting edge of sound reinforcement is simplicity. You can spent $500.000 and get pure junk, or you can learn the material, play in a good sounding room and use 1 sterio microphone and make a hit. That's how they did it at Mowtown. It's about the music!

[ALLCHOPS]

You probably had a the lower end series (200 or 400) of the Sure In Ears to use. One of our horn players went cheap and his first impression was bad as well.
There are also other issues one must know in order to use this system. The gain must be set correctly (at the monitor board) and when you do a mic check you must have your power pack at half volume or 5 on the dial. This enables all the frequencies to come alive and sound true through the ear buds and gives you plenty of headroom when needed. Like I said earlier, your channel goes directly into the board and by-passes any EQ they may have set up for monitor refinement. Set the EQ Flat @ the board and your off. The sound does vary from monitor board to monitor board depending on the quality. We have 3 different boards that we use depending on the size of the gig and all have been set months ago and don't ever change. Best of all the entire band uses them (9 piece) and the stage volume is close to nill except for obvious accoustic sounds from drums, horns etc.
The majority of big acts use them (T.O.P - Chicago - Santana - EWF - Billy Joel - Letterman Band and so on...). Most of the guys I know in nashville use them and what could have been if they had them 15 years ago. They are the way to go in these type situations. I would imagine that they are poular in Vegas and Atlantic City w/ the volume restrictions that these places often have. Using these gets rid of the residual sound in the house that is created through wedge monitors.
For the correct set up they are about $1,000.00 for the E-1 set up (single driver) and $1250.00 for E-5's(dual drivers for a bit more body and base signal as well as 3db louder which gives you much more headroom). I will admit that they are a bit pricey but I'm telling you they are the way to go if you want to experience your true tone without having to overblow which happens most of the time with a socky sounding wedges at your feet. You can actually drive home from a gig and listen to the radio and feel virtually no ear fatigue.

As far as the acoustic electric stage vibe thing that you want to feel? We hear it, there is a live channel that is also available to us. As far as the sound guy mixing what goes into your ears, he has nothing to do with it. You do the mix yourself. Yeah sure it takes a few minutes the first couple of times but once it's set your good to go. Want more keys, turn em up, want less Bone turn em down!!!

Motown is'nt here any more is it! Maybe cuase the one mic thing ran it's course and there is an easier way. You'd be surprised what's come along in the last 40 years.l

Good Luck!!!!!!!!

Tony G



[ This Message was edited by: ALLCHOPS on 2003-06-12 16:56 ]

[ This Message was edited by: ALLCHOPS on 2003-06-12 16:58 ]

[_Don Herman]

FWIW (obviously not much from me, but wait) Shure recently published an article (don't recall if it was a white paper or in OTWS) noting that in-ear systems can cause more damage (to your ears) if improperly used. Same problem as waaay back, when we'd pull off one side of our headphones to get some "live" sound. The problem is that, with live sound blaring in one ear, the other side (in-ear or conventional headset) gets turned up to compensate. The net effect is louder sound, and more hearing damage.

Be careful out there! - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[ALLCHOPS]

You can definately abuse the volume control on these things and they will cause damage. W/in 2-3 gigs you will find your sweet spot. Our guitar player left his home yesterday and went w/out for the gig. The first thing he said after sound check was how much louder it was w/out them and that had alot to do w/ the proximity of the of the front end.
My ears do not ring after a club date at all since getting into these in-ears. Some of these places are are so small and in order to here yourself through a conventional monitor it has to be cranked.
Anyhow, they are a worth the investment and if used correctly you'll be blown away.

Tony


[ This Message was edited by: ALLCHOPS on 2003-06-13 17:58 ]

[ This Message was edited by: ALLCHOPS on 2003-06-13 18:00 ]

[X3L]

I'll vouch big time for the in-ear monitors as well. If anything, sound volume is MUCH quieter than with standard floor wedges. Plus, as an added bonus, the in-ears are a great deal lighter than the aforementioned wedges! Just ask Bruce Lee, who got to roadie for my band one night...he was 'DA MAN and actually carried two of those durned things to the band trailer after the gig was over. Evidently, Bruce believed me when I told him that "anyone who gets up on stage and plays even one song HAS to help tear down". Lemme tell you folks, Bruce didn't get through Eastman on his intuitive common sense because NOONE else that I have ever used that line on ever helped us tear down!!!

One thing that I disagree with is the need to go with a Shure PSM 600 series in-ear system. I went with the PSM 400 for two reasons: 1) significant cost savings, and 2) the ability to be frequency agile. The PSM 400 has ten (or so) frequencies from which to choose, whereas the PSM 600 comes pre-set from the factory (and can only be changed by sending it back to Shure). On top of the $500 +/- that I have into the PSM 400, I have another $900 in custom ear molds from Ultimate Ears and just dropped even more coin on a dbx IEM processor. I'll be stylin' for sure once I get that bad boy hooked up! What the heck...you only go around once in life. As I tell my wife, "I didn't cut any corners while seeking my bride, why should I start now?" If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS...

John MacGregor
Waukesha, WI

[PhxHorn]

I'm still not sold on the in-ear thing. I know it's easier on your hearing, but trying to communicate on the band stand is
much harder when you can't hear the guy speaking next to you, and you're constantly taking the IEMs out and putting them back in. How do you guys cope with that, and trying to speak to an audience member?

[ALLCHOPS]

I'm not here trying to sell anybody anything. All I know is that they are great for me and my group. Also, I guess I'm up there to play and not talk. The band should know the material well enough so that conversation among members of the group should be minimal + I don't think it looks to good from an audience standpoint.
Before I got into these I was as skeptical as anyone. Again, I'll never go back the wedge. I really believe that in the future 5-10 years these will be the norm. They make life easier for everyone. No wedges and no power amps to lug around. It's kinda like a full screen projection television. Everybody wants that aspect ratio because they are use to seeing it that way. Very few movies offer a full screen version as opposed to wide screen. Cable in the not to distant future will be wide screen making your full screen obsolete.
Change now before you fall behind!

Tony

[pfrank]

It sounds lovely as you describe them, but I don't play in the places or in groups where they would be useable. One thing I'm in, a retro-Americanna circus-gypsy-rock band and immediate onstage interaction is part of the show. (not a shtick, just being a person onstage) We play rock clubs...although one gig was at the Gothic Theatre in Denver, a 2000 person venue with balconies...that place had a real theatre stage and all the techies running around to make it work...over July 4th we'll be at the SiscoSystems Blues Festival in Ottowa Canada. That will be our biggest gig so far, and I bet there won't be no stinkin in-ear monitors. (that's humor, not comment)

Another issue for me personally and also in the context of this particular band I'm in, and that is: something in my ear with a wire running somewhere? FORGET IT! I wear glasses, but that's it for extras! No ring, no chains, no watch, absolutly no crap on my body while performing. If I was in a group where it was considered a requirement, I guarantee the thing would not stay in my ear! I want the sound entering my ears to be the exact sound that is vibrating my whole body In That Moment Acoustically. Not sent to an amp and then back to me head. I would feel cut off. (I improvise allot live, and gotta feel the space I'm in...ya know?) From allot of experience, I Like using headphones in a recording studio, but in live performance, niet so far.

[PhxHorn]

I guess I'm up there to play and not talk. The band should know the material well enough so that conversation among members of the group should be minimal + I don't think it looks to good from an audience standpoint.

You've lost me now. What if an audience member in a club come up to request something? Gotta pull the thing out and ask them to repeat themselves. What if the bandleader changes the setlist (if any) and calls an audible? Gotta pull the thing out and and say, "What?" If there is no setlist whatsoever (which is the case on most gigs I play with several different bands), the bandleader has to call every tune on the fly, and you're isolated from that. What if they decide to stretch a tune and you need to call out something the the rest of the horn section, like "Back to the bridge!" Everyone has to pull out the earpieces, and you have to repeat yourself.

I can see how they might work if all you're doing is playing a scripted show and ignoring the audience and everyone else, but if there is to be any level of spontaneity, it seems like they would get in the way. Just my impression.

[PhxHorn]

Well, it looks like we've managed to assemble a system to give us a monitor, as well as do what we want with our sound before sending it to the soundman. I bought a used Behringer 16-channel analog mixer board from someone else in the band. It's more channels than we need, but it does a great job with all the aux sends and all that stuff, plus the sax player is considering using it to mix an entire band at some point so it has expansion possibilities.

Along with that, we have a 2-channel compressor, 2-channel EQ, 2-channel reverb/FX unit, and a feedback suppressor. The feedback suppressor from Behringer is a neato little gadget, let me tell you.

It's been a learning experience figuring out how to plug in the effects so that we hear the same thing the soundman is getting, including wet signal. I had no idea that a stereo 1/4-inch plug could both send and receive, but it makes sense that you could use it that way. We ended up (after much head-scratching) using the EQ and compressor in the individual channel inserts (via that 1/4-inch stereo plug), since we had two horns and two channels in each unit. The Feedback Destroyer is in between the mixer board and the monitor speaker, which is powered.

The reverb unit was the interesting part. We run the reverb through the aux 2 send/receive loop so as to be able to add FX to both horns. This adds FX to the house mix, but the board seems to be unable to add FX to both monitor and house mix without doing some fiddling. So we split the output of the reverb unit and, in addition sending half of the output to the aux 2 returns that affect the house mix, and sent the other half to a separate channel on the board, which we routed to an alternate output (Alt 3-4). We then ran the dry monitor mix (aux 1 send) to another channel on the board, which was also routed to Alt 3-4. So the dry monitor mix and the FX signal were both combined into one output (alt 3-4), which runs to the monitor speaker. This could have also been accomplished using a Y-adaptor, but it's a bit more elegant this way and we use more lights and buttons and sliders, so obviously this is better...