Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:10 am Post subject: Trolls - Thoughts and Discussion
Greetings all:
I was hoping to open up a thread in regards to posters who are known as T-R-O-L-L-s. Recently I've seen multiple threads go to trash due to the entry of at least two resident Trolls (or that would be my evaluation).
I'm thinking a working defintion of a troll would be:
1) One who constantly changes a thread to discussions about the member, instead of the topic. The thread shift may be from the post itself, or other's response to the post.
2) The exception to the above would be if the member is generally considered a high level player or builder that converstation would naturally turn to them after a post.
One of the trolls seems to emphasize that they're the greatest/highest/whatever trumpet player in the world. He does get his panties in a wad when it's pointed out, he's, well, not.
The other troll is famous for long confusing posts which proclaim knowledge on one post, and then points out the complete lack of any actual experience in others.
Both these trolls have their entire life scattered over the internet, but get a little pissy when THEIR OWN POSTINGS are brought into play. They've also both been banned from other forums.
Unfortunately both these posters draw the ire of folks and the flames hit the fan (The best way to get rid of Trolls is to ignore them, but that has proven difficult at best, and I know I've been guilty of sending ou for take out when feeding the Trolls). Important posts (such as ones about fraud or complementing a manufacturer for going above and beyond the call of duty) get placed in the TH trash can.
It also takes serious conversations off the table, and cuts down the enjoyment and sharing of ideas that makes this a fun place to check into.
Now of course this is all moot, since I don't run this website, nor, do the majority of posters...but it might be worth wild to come up with some ideas to suggest up the chain of command.
1) How would you define a Troll and place the crime of "Trollism" in the usage? One doesn't want to shut folks up, and sometimes a little fire helps spark interest, but the Trolls have more of a LOOK AT ME approach to things.
2) What type of procedure to identify, warn, and then eliminate the Troll?
3) Is this whole thought process unreasonable, should Trolls be highly tolerated in the name of tolerance and free speach.
Let's not use names/ID's for this disucssion, but discuss behaviors.
Since Reville doesn't go onto the front page of TH if you know anyone interested in this topic, you may wish to PM them.
_________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by.
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:47 am Post subject:
Frankly, I've been tempted more than once to just be done with TH. I warned the Moderators about one of these folks a few years ago, and much of what I said would happen has come to pass.
Now I just report what I perceive to be violations. Apparently the mods would rather spend their time putting out little fires instead of taking the matches away from the trolls. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!
Frankly, I've been tempted more than once to just be done with TH. I warned the Moderators about one of these folks a few years ago, and much of what I said would happen has come to pass.
1) Do you have an estimate on how many other members left due to Troll activity? And types of expertise these folks took with them?
2) Any suggestions for a process to identify and ban of Trolls? _________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by.
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 2548 Location: Oakville, ON Canada
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:48 am Post subject:
Like Jeff, on a number of occasions I have considered leaving and never coming back. In fact, I am on the fence right now for likely the same reasons as he.
I have been accused once or twice of being a troll. In my opinion, one man's troll may be another's soulmate, so to speak. Of course, there are those that are so over the top that it would appear that they are only in it to get a rise out of everyone else. However, each and every one of them at times has had something of value to say.
Sometimes I get peeved and wish certain people would be censored or banned, but I guess what I really want most of all is an ignore function. I just don't want to see their posts or be reminded of their existence. _________________ Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces
I have been accused once or twice of being a troll. In my opinion, one man's troll may be another's soulmate, so to speak. Of course, there are those that are so over the top that it would appear that they are only in it to get a rise out of everyone else. However, each and every one of them at times has had something of value to say.
A thin line and a slippery slope, we're dealing with the Potter Stewert definitions "I know it when I see it." But you need to differentiate the troll from: The witty, the sarcastic, the enthusiastic, and the slightly too aggressive with the ones who have little to offer compared to the problems they cause.
For example we have a Wrestler and Someone who plays the Harpoon. Some would consider them trolls, but they both appear quite knowledgeable and while off-beat style, often cut to the heart of a topic. The thread is rarely re-directed due to their posts. They don't tend to post anything about themselves, another characteristic of the Trolls.
Any suggestions for a workable Troll definition? _________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by.
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:48 am Post subject:
When someone that is being at the very least strongly hinted at to be one of the trolls posts a thread about something, and 12 hours later, there are already over a dozen replies, and many of those replies are from the very people upset about the OP's posting history, I think we need to look closely at who is the real culprit.
The old saying "Don't Feed the Trolls" is the only real fix for this. The true troll personality thrives off people rising to the bait. We all have to force ourselves to not reply, even briefly to be funny, in order to make it stop. I know it's difficult, I've done it myself.
I've seen this scenario played out over decades first back on Usenet in its infancy days and later on web forums and mailing lists. There are invariably concerns that "the new people" will not realize the ideas or "facts" presented by these trolls as flame-bait and suffer because they act upon them or get suckered in. To that, I can only say you figured it out, I figured it out, many others figured it out. Give the new people the benefit of the doubt.
Imagine if every thread started by one of the you-know-whos had 0 responses. If every incendiary bomb dropped in the middle of an other wise interesting thread simply was ignored. Pretty soon, it would become apparent that the activity is pointless, and they'd look for another online community with more trollable members.
The bad news is, these people can't be cured. In one particular case here, the person doing the trolling first started doing it (with *exactly the same M.O. btw) on Usenet over a decade ago. Same ridiculous claims, same made up stories, on and on. The script never changes. He just gets booted out (or ignored out) from one community to the next.
You can't fix them. You can't insult them enough, or make enough logical counterarguments in a lifetime to make them go away, they feed on that stuff. All you can hope for is shoving them off of one community discussion site to another. They don't have to banned for this to happen. They simply have to not get traction with the active members. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
When someone that is being at the very least strongly hinted at to be one of the trolls posts a thread about something, and 12 hours later, there are already over a dozen replies, and many of those replies are from the very people upset about the OP's posting history, I think we need to look closely at who is the real culprit.
The old saying "Don't Feed the Trolls" is the only real fix for this. The true troll personality thrives off people rising to the bait. We all have to force ourselves to not reply, even briefly to be funny, in order to make it stop. I know it's difficult, I've done it myself.
I've seen this scenario played out over decades first back on Usenet in its infancy days and later on web forums and mailing lists. There are invariably concerns that "the new people" will not realize the ideas or "facts" presented by these trolls as flame-bait and suffer because they act upon them or get suckered in. To that, I can only say you figured it out, I figured it out, many others figured it out. Give the new people the benefit of the doubt.
Imagine if every thread started by one of the you-know-whos had 0 responses. If every incendiary bomb dropped in the middle of an other wise interesting thread simply was ignored. Pretty soon, it would become apparent that the activity is pointless, and they'd look for another online community with more trollable members.
The bad news is, these people can't be cured. In one particular case here, the person doing the trolling first started doing it (with *exactly the same M.O. btw) on Usenet over a decade ago. Same ridiculous claims, same made up stories, on and on. The script never changes. He just gets booted out (or ignored out) from one community to the next.
You can't fix them. You can't insult them enough, or make enough logical counterarguments in a lifetime to make them go away, they feed on that stuff. All you can hope for is shoving them off of one community discussion site to another. They don't have to banned for this to happen. They simply have to not get traction with the active members.
Sometimes I get peeved and wish certain people would be censored or banned, but I guess what I really want most of all is an ignore function. I just don't want to see their posts or be reminded of their existence.
I usually view TH using Firefox -- there's a very workable Greasemonkey add-in called "phpBB User Hide" that works quite nicely. If I recall correctly, it even hides quotes attributed to the user you're trying to ignore. _________________ Steve Thiel
Like Jeff, on a number of occasions I have considered leaving and never coming back. In fact, I am on the fence right now for likely the same reasons as he.
+1.
My reason is that I don't want to be identified with a forum that permits utter nonsense, posted continiously by some people (actually only one or two posters) who have EXTREMELY limited or NO experience at all, yet who think that they are the best thing on earth since sliced bread. They hide behind a fake name (mind you, definitely not all fake-name-posters are like that), give ill advice, spread lies and take the liberty to regularly insult established players and builders.
This might not be a pleasant thread, but I can only agree with Fred; it's about time that things are being discussed openly and hopefully get resolved... (yes, you may call me ignorant).
IMHO the credibility of what once used to be a great forum for trumpeters is at risk.
We may not agree with eachother, we all have different styles and opinions, we argue and sometimes fight pretty tough disputes, but as far as I'm concerned that's all absolutely fine. The subject here is something else: people who choose to be a pain our behinds, just for the sake of being destructive.
I've never been pro-banning, but sadly enough I've recently changed my mind.
So yes please, by all means, let's discuss this, let it all happen.
The old saying "Don't Feed the Trolls" is the only real fix for this. The true troll personality thrives off people rising to the bait. We all have to force ourselves to not reply, even briefly to be funny, in order to make it stop. I know it's difficult, I've done it myself.
Randy, you're of course 100% correct. However it's like saying "If you want to lose weight, just eat less then you do now!" It's 100% true and that simple. So why do I see Marie Osmond and Van Halen's ex all the time if it was that easy?
Here's the problem:
1) New Members or members who haven't been around for a while don't know the Troll and responses to the provocation.
2) Folks googling into a thread won't know the Troll and might be mis-led into BELIEVING the Troll, especially when they go unchallenged (i.e. not fed).
3) Sometimes you just can't hold back when they attack FOR NO GOOD REASON a person who you've worked with for many years...or attack a fellow member just for pointing out they're playing sucks. It's just hard to let that stand.
4) The Trolls might go away for awhile, and then return, Troll recgonition would have to start all over again...hmmm....in Ohio Drunk Drivers get a Yellow license Plate, maybe a Troll Avatar??? You can keep driving/posting, we just need to warn everyone you're on the road/forum.
In my example of (2) above, I wanted to build a thread that could be used for those who might want to recommend Kanstul/Getzen student horns to a parent, despite the higher inital cost. I thought there was some good arguments for that. However the thread has been so pooped on by a resident Troll that I'd be embarassed to point someone to the thread. Otherwise, not only did the thread accomplish it's initial goal, it also demonstrated to the parents how seriously we took our horns back then, now even years later. Nice thread, destroyed.
That's why I'm thinkng as Jeff (jazz_trpt) pointed out...we'll have to keep putting out fires, if we don't simply take the matches away. _________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by.
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject:
Fred,
That defense, namely so "the uninitiated will be protected", is precisely why I covered that in my original reply here. You have to be willing to let them figure it out for themselves. I've seen your arguments almost literally a thousand times before in similar cases on other sites, i.e. that we have to protect those that don't know about the trolls.
My argument is that to solve a real problem, some cost is involved. Namely allowing these people to figure out the same thing you figured out. It's not a perfect solution, it's simply the only one I've ever seen work on open forums, apart from banning, which apparently isn't going to happen. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
, apart from banning, which apparently isn't going to happen.
Randy:
That's what the threads about, banning at least our two major Trolls, but also what to do in the future. If, it's a given that they can continue to fly under the banning radar, then I agree, ignoring is the best policy, sort of like not negotiating with (forum) terrorists...best solution in the long run. _________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by.
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject:
RandyTX wrote:
Fred,
That defense, namely so "the uninitiated will be protected", is precisely why I covered that in my original reply here. You have to be willing to let them figure it out for themselves. I've seen your arguments almost literally a thousand times before in similar cases on other sites, i.e. that we have to protect those that don't know about the trolls.
My argument is that to solve a real problem, some cost is involved. Namely allowing these people to figure out the same thing you figured out. It's not a perfect solution, it's simply the only one I've ever seen work on open forums, apart from banning, which apparently isn't going to happen.
I am afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you on this particular point. I don't believe that it is as black and white as you appear to feel.
It is my opininon that some of these people under discussion really don't care if people respond, they just care that their opinions are in print. For these people your solution will not have any effect except allowing those persons statements to stand unchallenged.
, apart from banning, which apparently isn't going to happen.
Randy:
That's what the threads about, banning at least our two major Trolls, but also what to do in the future. If, it's a given that they can continue to fly under the banning radar, then I agree, ignoring is the best policy, sort of like not negotiating with (forum) terrorists...best solution in the long run.
A question then: what, specifically, have the posters you have in mind done that violates the usage agreement in ways that others haven't? _________________ Steve Thiel
, apart from banning, which apparently isn't going to happen.
Randy:
That's what the threads about, banning at least our two major Trolls, but also what to do in the future. If, it's a given that they can continue to fly under the banning radar, then I agree, ignoring is the best policy, sort of like not negotiating with (forum) terrorists...best solution in the long run.
A question then: what, specifically, have the posters you have in mind done that violates the usage agreement in ways that others haven't?
Well, recently one went on a tirade over how he perceived he was treated by one of the manufacturers. Posted under multiple threads. Very questionable justification (once the WHOLE story came out)
Quote:
"Flames" any individual or entity (e.g., sends repeated messages related to another user and/or makes derogatory or offensive comments about another individual), or repeats prior posting of the same message under multiple threads or subjects.
and then there's:
Quote:
Is defamatory, threatening, disparaging, grossly inflammatory, false, misleading, deceptive, fraudulent, inaccurate, unfair, contains gross exaggeration or unsubstantiated claims, violates the privacy rights of any third party, is unreasonably harmful or offensive to any individual or community, contains any actionable statement, or tends to mislead or reflect unfairly on any other person, business or entity.
But Steve, your right, this happens to some degree on many threads, what is "crossing the line?" Frequency? Intensity? Length of posts?
That's what I'm trying to get some opinions on in this thread.
Is there a difference between free speach and someone just standing with an Air Horn and blasts it while others are trying to communicate?
Do you feel that this might be a problem?
Or do you feel I'm completely going out of bounds here? _________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by.
I have felt that no matter what is being discussed it winds up being not as much fun since I refuse to read troll posts I have not been enjoying being on here, posting etc.
Oh well.
I tend to try and keep things light, to address and use humor here but lately I just don't...... _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:08 pm Post subject:
Well, I think that no matter how you think it should be handled by the moderators, the idea that all the good members leave, and we all lose what I personally think is a really Good Thing (TM), namely an online place to have discussions, see pictures of others' instruments, ask questions, etc., all because one or two people rub some the wrong way.
That's like having the entire population of your town move somewhere else because a couple bad kids are running around spray painting mail boxes.
Seems a lot more useful to just ignore posts/threads that get out of hand, and focus on the ones that you find valuable, rather than stressing on the ones that make your blood pressure rise. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
I come on here now and it seems different, like all the life, spontaneity is gone, and I've noticed a lot of long time fun posters just don't post anymore..... The worst thing is when I see a troll post (which I vow never to read) have 6-10 responses
Sad, I've lost a friend. _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject:
You can't leave now. Charlie's nearing completion on my Olds restoration, and I am itching to show you the before/after pictures. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
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