Copper Bells

[chapahi]

[quote="Archway"]

[shofarguy]

Alright, already. Conn Coprion bells are electro-formed, not hand spun from sheet, so there is really no comparison between what you guys are writing and what I have written. If I have no idea what playing a Coprion bell is like (I don't) and you have (I'm assuming) no idea what playing a hand-spun copper bell is like, then of course one of us might seem to be stupid. The truth is that we are talking about totally different types of instrument construction that give totally different results. That is why I listed the horns I was writing about.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[EdMann]

Guys, this is sooo silly. Clearly the gauge of the brass, the zinc content and the annealing, as well as mpc choice all come into play. I've played the Calicchio Brian speaks of, and it it like a softer version of the 1s/2 most guys around town scream on. I've also owned Conn coprion bells, heavy gauge, and they are monsters; the sound just doesn't break up. I believe this is why it made for a good student horn, witness the 17 Victor series. Kids could blast away and still sound less blatty. That's one of the more underrated Conns ever made.

My family has been in the brass business for decades, and while I couldn't write much of a disertation on the subject, I can say flat out that copper content and gauge go hand in hand.

ed

[RogersBrass]

I agree with shofarguy...there are to many variables to make clearly defined comparisons between one type of copper bell, and another type.

Copper bells made from sheet material or drawn tubing may have some nickel or zinc content...even a small amount just for the purpose of making the copper more workable..or it could be (pure ?) copper material.

However coprion bells are pure copper..but I am not sure of variations in gauge for an electroformed bell..between production runs spanning decades. In addition..even though coprion bells are electroformed..the rolled rim bead is not electroformed..so they end up on a bell spinning lathe..and indeed are spun.

I enjoy reading the vintage Conn ads regarding the instrument product line going back into the 1920s...or earlier. Many of the assertions made by Conn 60 or 70 years ago were written to fit the culture of that day..including what they say about coprion bells, and other claims about the playing characteristics of the instruments. The information is of little value today..other than just historical interest. The Conn ads are no different than ads for laundry detergent at that time.

I expect to be confronted on my "assertion"...but if you read the old ads..they really don't say anything.
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www.rogersbrass.com
custom leadpipes

[Dale Proctor]

Having a copper bell must make a trumpet worth a lot of money...look at this lousy Conn Director that's on eBay right now....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Conn-Coprion-Bell-Trumpet-/290505355422?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item43a377f09e

What are the bidders thinking???
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[conn53victor]

Copper Bells, Copper Bells,
It's trumpet time on the herald.
Players boast; read their posts.
Soon it will be Concert Day!
_________________
Jim Calkins
IA City
‎"Rooty toot bop pattern. Rooty toot blues lick. Rooty toot Miles quote. Rooty toot mistake- all my solos." -Dmitri Matheny

1963 Connstellation

[VetPsychWars]

[VetPsychWars]

[Crazy Finn]

[Bill Blackwell]

I have to chime in here.

I have owned three Kanstul 1001 (think Beng 3x+) horns over the last two years. So my comments are based on playing more than one instrument - one in the 'standard' configuration in lacquer, one was ordered from the factory in what was essentially a standard configuration in silver, and the third was completely customized, which is the one I kept (see my signature). This one has a custom configuration with a reversed lead pipe and a copper bell (I believe it was made from the standard sheet material used for the bells on the model 1500).

I ordered the copper bell simply for appearances sake. I had also hoped the copper would provide me with a darker timbre. This, however, simply did not happen. The horn plays somewhat restrictive for a .464 bore and is not my favorite for splitting lead - this, I believe is a direct result of the copper (the copper simply does not respond as fast as brass). The reversed lead pipe somewhat compensates for this, but not entirely. I love this horn for jazz, but it is not dark by any definition. You could pick it out in a blindfold comparison test with the other two 1001's because the copper produces a broader sound - but not darker.

My experience with my 1530 cornet was, however, quite different. It was ordered with a copper bell and a copper lead pipe and it plays quite dark - in fact the timbre sits part way between a trumpet and a flugelhorn. However, the 1530 is probably the darkest of Kanstul’s cornet line-up, which is due directly to the shepherd’s crook design on the bell crook, third valve slide, and in front of the tuning slide.

What I am saying here is there are a number of factors beyond the copper bell which affects the timbre of a horn. As has already been noted, Schilke’s B5 and B6 both have copper bells – neither are 'dark' playing instruments (I owed and played a B5 for a few years prior to connecting with a Kanstul) by any standard.
_________________
Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine

Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper

The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra

[RogersBrass]

Regarding the Conn Director on ebay. There are buyers who look for these horns.

I would not buy a trumpet from a seller who referred to the horn as "she"...I place those sellers in the moron category.

The Conn coprion bells are becoming collectible...but the last one of these coprion Directors I picked up..I paid $20.
_________________
www.rogersbrass.com
custom leadpipes

[JetJaguar]

Some comments from Andy Taylor on the subject:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=890353&highlight=#890353

[connicalman]

The folks who have played copper bells report bell performance much similar to my experience. Amateur experience, sensitive ear.

Thanks much for the info about nickle content & color. Remember that the elecroplated coprion will have a different crystilline structure than sheet copper, though annealing and turning on a lathe obviously makes some differences.

The Conn Coprion bell on a trumpet does allow for a ton of air without distorting. Let's assume you play well enough to stay centered on pitch. What ever the quality of your airstream, your tone will probly come through with less rasp. As an aside, I'd like to compare that Director to the sweet Victor that someone got in LA last week on Craigslist. $150! Looked pristine. Wow. It got bought before I remembered to save the url/picture Who's the lucky SOB?!?!

What I can say is this:
a. the Director's coprion bell does have a good bark. It fills the small rooms "evenly" yet doesn't seem to carry as far as the coprion cored /nickle surfaced Connstellation;
b. comparing apples to apples as best I can among my Conns of 0.438 bore, neither coprion-based bell is a 'fast' off notes as the standard yellow brass Connquest. You might say it feels a bit like running on grass in sneakers instead of cleats, if you were to compare fast footwork to triple-tonguing. Doable and no great hindrance to a quality set of chops, comfortable but does not turn as quick. Great on legato phrases.
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kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστε��ισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...

[Dale Proctor]

[shofarguy]

Bill,

Did any of your other 1001s have the reversed mouthpipe configuration? The difference in the bracing can certainly affect the timbre and resistance. Also, another one off 1001 variation I've tried just didn't play like the normal version. I wonder what all makes your horn as you describe? At least with the copper belled 1025, the copper seemed to give me better response at low volume; noticeably more delicate.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Bill Blackwell]

[oliver king]

The only 'issue' I had initially with my Kanstul 1500 was that articulations were 'thick'. A mouthpiece change cleaned it up (Warburton XD to D). Like others playing a copper bell - I enjloy a broad warm sound. When pushed, it sizzles; but much differently than any other horn I've got.
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LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3,

[bilboinsa]