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stanton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 726 Location: Skokie, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:42 am Post subject: |
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w00005414 wrote: | BTW, I am in Massachusetts so I might go seek out Jeanne for a lesson
Take care,
Brian |
Brian,
Just heard from Jeanne yesterday. She will be back in the states from Haiti on the 28th. If she is coming to Boston first, this might be a great window of opportunity so you may want to set something up in advance. Her email is jgpocius@yahoo.com.
Good luck,
Stanton _________________ Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:19 am Post subject: |
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TY Rusty. Glad it's coming together came together. _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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huckleberry finn New Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2011 Posts: 8
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Guys, sorry if I'm gushing a bit, but I just wanted to tell you that this thread, which first lead me to Rusty's 19/30s and then to Greg Spence's site, has made all the difference in this humble beginner's trumpeting.
What a wonderfully open and resonant sound I have now! I make the whole room resonate, and it feels good too! And it all came together in one afternoon! Rusty and Greg both have the gift of showing how, and not just describing what you should be doing, if you know what I mean?
With Rusty's insight and Greg's methodical excercises (The sound samples made all the difference!) I'm on my way to being able to play with an effortlessly musical tone. So thank you both!
"Just picture the perfect sound in your head, and let go" is my creed now. |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Flinders, Australia
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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I too have benefited from the 19/30 exercise every 2nd day, also been fortunate to have had a couple of lessons with Greg, I will try for more in the new year.
The thought struck me last week that having benefited so much from the descending exercise what would be the effect of the same patten ASCENDING, this I have tried a couple of times from 3rd space C to high C, a bit early to tell but certainly holding high C for 30 secs gives the chops a good workout. I have to rest for at least an hour after.
Regards, Stuart. |
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w00005414 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 384
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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stanton wrote: | w00005414 wrote: | BTW, I am in Massachusetts so I might go seek out Jeanne for a lesson
Take care,
Brian |
Brian,
Just heard from Jeanne yesterday. She will be back in the states from Haiti on the 28th. If she is coming to Boston first, this might be a great window of opportunity so you may want to set something up in advance. Her email is jgpocius@yahoo.com.
Good luck,
Stanton |
Hi Stanton, thanks for the info, have a great new years! _________________ Brian Gibson |
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mountainair Regular Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2010 Posts: 26 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:22 am Post subject: 19/30s exercise explained |
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Just wanted to thank Rusty and the others who have participated in this thread. I have been struggling with playing with far too much tension and have been through several embouchure adjustments/changes in the two years that I have been playing on my journey to a more efficient embouchure. I started the 19/30s exercise about 2 weeks ago and am amazed at what's happened. This exercise is helping me re-set my embouchure back to neutral and freeing me from the tendency to manipulate mechanics. I can finally feel the column of air that several teachers have mentioned and what it means to ride the airstream with almost no sensation of my lips. When I can keep this sense of relaxed lips and steady air support, my sound is beautifully resonant and right on pitch center. I am continuing to do this exercise daily and am trusting the new mechanics that are developing. I have also visited Greg Spence's website and have found this extremely helpful in tying things together. I have had great teachers who have mentioned these concepts, but until I could experience them myself, they weren't real. Greg speaks to kinesthetic learners like me. I am excited about my progress and where all of this will lead. Thanks again, everyone! |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I have read the original PDF and many, many of the posts, but now my eyes are starting to glaze over, so please excuse me if this question has been asked before. When you begin the tone with a relaxed face and embouchure, isn't your face and aren't your lips moving into a puffed position as the air escapes?
If so, is this what is intended?
If not, then are you not using a degree of facial muscle control to prevent it?
Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Thought this thread deserved to be bumped up. I've been doing this for several months now. It has become my normal embouchure. My endurance has improved greatly. My range had been stuck on F for years. Not even a squeak above that. Now I'm playing fat Gs and am starting to slot up to Bb.
Hey, Key. When i first strted this exercise I would start from a puffed position. I still sometimes go back to that. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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pepperdean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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I hope this isn’t out of sync with where this thread has progressed. I’m several pages into reading the thread and three days into trying this routine as a warmup and I had to share.
I retired seven years ago and moved across country. Immediately after retirement and for a year or so after moving I hardly played my trumpet. I couldn’t do without it and resumed daily practice. I probably pushed too hard, too quickly and worked on very challenging material, trying to play all registers with a setting in the range of high F-G like I did before the time off. I believe I was already starting to play with too much tension. Then about four years ago, I contracted shingles which deadened the left side of my lower lip. Most of the feeling returned but I again probably did too much, too soon. The result was way too much tension and a broken embouchure.
One of the lasting lessons from studying with Carmine Caruso was that the blow formed the embouchure – lips gently together and blow. That has been an important part of my teaching for years, often with dramatic results. I found that it was not so easy to find an instant prescription for myself because I was just so tight. At first, I tired very quickly. That improved but still my sound was not what I wanted and I could no longer play in all registers with a volume that would cover the band at the back of the hall.
I worked at warmups designed to promote relaxation. First, I used Claude Gordon style descending arpeggios to very low pedals. Next, I abandoned that for various leadpipe exercises. Progress was steady, but……
A daily dose of Balanced Embouchure also helped but parts of that lacked because I was still not entirely loose. I’ve been able to sub on several types of gigs and cover the parts adequately but not with the ‘pick it up and blow’ comfort level that I would like.
Greg Spence’s book and videos also provided reinforcement for what I knew and have been trying to accomplish. Great stuff.
It has been my firm belief for 40+ years that you draped the lips over teeth that provide an aperture for the air and blow air against the inside of the mask. The lips will form the appropriate tension (not much) when met with resistance from the horn.
I’d glanced at this thread when it was first posted but really didn’t examine it carefully. Too bad. Time wasted. I’ve used the 19/30s as a warmup for the past three days with dramatic results at unlocking the corners and freeing the vibrations in the center of my lip.
One of the things that I next want to explore has been liberated by the 19/30s. I took a few lessons fro Jerry Callet in the early 70s (pre-Trumpet Yoga). Much of what he gave me was to be played very loudly. Some of the Balanced Embouchure material is also to be played at an extreme volume. There may be a comment there that you can’t play incorrectly when playing very loud. This also goes along with a routine Al Cass suggested back in the late 60s. It involved etudes from the Harry James Method. Basically, you played continuously, with a jazz articulation, as loudly as possible, as fast as possible, ignoring rhythms, until no sound came out. When you reached that point, you were to quickly play some low chromatics, and return to the routine. This was repeated until you were totally out of gas. It was a monster routine and I could keep it up for 45 minutes or so. When I was finished, my entire body would be spent. The result, however, was that I could play lead on three shows in a day at top volume without tiring. I know that while doing that routine, my chops were totally loose. The rest of me was working hard.
Three days of the 19/30s and I have loosened to the point where I can again reach extreme loud volume with full resonance. It going to be fun exploring what can be enabled with that volume and what will continue to evolve from continued practice with the 19/30s.
Cool stuff, Rusty. Thanks for sharing.
Alan |
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pepperdean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Now four days in. I just played Clarke #3 up to an effortless high G. It felt an octave lower. I could have gone on but I freaked out and stopped. Hey, with this reprogramming, you can only handle so much new data at once
Alan |
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pastpt444 New Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2012 Posts: 5
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Interesting... |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I started teaching this to my middle school band brass before Christmas. I don't think it would work for a kid in his first couple of weeks, but once they learn to control the puffed cheeks, it is the bomb. Even my 6th graders are developing a mature sound. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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FLgargoyle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 835 Location: Travelers Rest SC
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I just found this thread the other day while searching 'endurance'. I'm an older amateur who has quit and resumed playing more times than I can count. I've never had any lessons, other than as a group in HS band. As I get older, endurance, which has never been my strong suit, has gotten worse. I find myself 'over training' for big gigs, and then not having anything left for the performance.
First, I'd like to shout out a big THANK-YOU to Rusty and all of the other contributors! It works! After messing around with the 19/30's for a few days, I made some discoveries about my playing. One, I actually somewhat play this way in the lower register, which is probably why I've always had a big fat low register. But as I go up, the tension increases- a lot. I've even gotten a sore throat from playing! And everything tenses up- I swear some days my toes are tired.
What I'm doing right now is running through the whole 19/30 prior to my regular playing. I then try to incorporate as much of that feel and sound as I can on regular material. I'm playing an alto horn, with a big, deep mouthpiece, and the rewards of relaxed playing are amazing. I instantly got a big boost in endurance, because in the lower register, my lips aren't doing any work at all. I still need to tighten up some to play high, esp. with the big mpc., but I'm not working nearly as hard to get there.
I have 5 weeks to get ready for our Easter cantata, which normally is more playing than I can handle. 3 hours of rehearsal on Saturday leaves me precious little to work with come Sunday. Hopefully, playing this way will buy me the endurance I need.
An interesting aside- I have the same problem singing that I do playing. In the low register, I can sing very freely, with the air doing the work. I really tighten up as I go up, with the same result of loss of endurance and tone quality suffers. I'm not sure if i can apply the same principles, but ya gotta admit that some singers can just float up their effortlessly, and make it look easy. _________________ Jay
'64 Olds Super Trumpet
'35 Conn 40B Vocabell
'55 King Master Cornet
'40 Conn Aida Trumpet
'21 Boston Alto Horn |
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jocar37 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 380 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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There are a lot of references in this thread to Greg Spence's videos and website. I was wondering how many of you have actually bought his book, or did you just check out the free videos? If you did buy the book, what did you think of it? Did it add much to what you learned from the videos? _________________ 1945 Martin Committee
1939 Martin Handcraft Committee
1963 Olds Recording
1906 F. Besson flugel |
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md-jones Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2005 Posts: 298
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have been watching this post for a while, but I haven't got around to trying it yet.
My real question is about part of a post I saw a few back:
"I experience that "tremolo" down low (it strikes me as an involuntary quiver... hope we're talking about the same thing) occasionally, always when I'm kind of out of shape and need to sort of "center" things with some 19/30s-type playing. When it happens to me, it feels like my out-of-shape-ness is influencing me to "hold" things together down there, and the quiver comes from the tug-of-war between long-established habits and my attempts to let things stay relaxed. And for me, just staying with it, for one thing, helps eliminate the issue, as does re-assessing the air flow (which, by happy coincidence, leads to your question about dynamics). "
I have had this "tremolo" effect for years, and I haven't been able to fix it. It happens most of the time that I play. Mostly it doesn't effect me too badly, but when I get tired or haven't played for several days, it sounds like vibrato. Lately I have been doing the "pencil" exercise to see if that will help, but since I read this and see that others have it too, I am looking for ways to stop it. Any suggestions are welcome! |
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mountainair Regular Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2010 Posts: 26 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: 19/30s exercise explained |
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Just curious, since several posters have mentioned puffed cheeks...do those of you doing this find that you tend to puff your cheeks? I'm not seeing that, but I am playing with an air pocket underneath my top lip. Just wondering if I'm relaxing enough when doing this exercise. I do have some mental resistance to playing with puffed cheeks based on some embouchure confusion it caused me in the past. |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:09 am Post subject: |
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When I first started this exercise, I would begin the note with puffed cheeks, then use the muscle Rusty talked about just enough to pull my embouchure into place. Then i continue to hold the note using minimum effort. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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FLgargoyle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 835 Location: Travelers Rest SC
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Same here. I start with an airball and puffed cheeks to get the feel of being totally relaxed. It's a fine fine between 'relaxed', and 'flaccid'. _________________ Jay
'64 Olds Super Trumpet
'35 Conn 40B Vocabell
'55 King Master Cornet
'40 Conn Aida Trumpet
'21 Boston Alto Horn |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Flinders, Australia
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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jocar37 wrote: | There are a lot of references in this thread to Greg Spence's videos and website. I was wondering how many of you have actually bought his book, or did you just check out the free videos? If you did buy the book, what did you think of it? Did it add much to what you learned from the videos? |
I have had Greg's book for a couple of years now, I refer to it and re read it from time to time to reinforce the concepts, the exercises are well graded with excelent explanations in the text.
I have had a couple of lessons with Greg, I will try to get some more this year, he is a great teacher and a monster player, the problem is the 150km drive to his studio.
The 19/30 exercise has helped me with tone and endurance, I recently started the same patten ascending starting from 3rd space C which is much more difficult to keep relaxed. |
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FLgargoyle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 835 Location: Travelers Rest SC
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Just an update, and I think this thread deserves another bump. Well, the cantata came and went, and my endurance easily handled all of the rehearsals and performances. I use the basic 19/30 as a warm-up, and it works every time. I have a much more relaxed embouchure now. It still amazes me that I was so far off on fundamental sound production for all these years. _________________ Jay
'64 Olds Super Trumpet
'35 Conn 40B Vocabell
'55 King Master Cornet
'40 Conn Aida Trumpet
'21 Boston Alto Horn |
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