VanCleave Book WARNING!!!!

Vessehune · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:19 am Post subject:

It was the 2nd of May. I thought it would be a good idea to get Maximizing Practice Vol. 1 by Mark VanCleave. So I placed my order and I used Paypal because I thought it would speed up the transaction. Well two months later I still have yet to receive the book. Mr. VanCleave was more than happy to take the money, but still has yet to send me the book. Last month I put a similar letter to this on his Trumpetplayer.com website. The letter was deleted off the message board and he sent me a letter stating he would send me the book in the next few days. That email was sent on June 3rd. So here I am two months after the initial purchase a few bucks poorer, which is tough for a college student, and no book in hand. I thought I would pass this warning on to my trumpet brethren so others don't make the same mistake.

jhatpro · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:49 am Post subject:

Hmmmm. I sent him $15.50 via PayPal on 6/16/03 for the same book. Haven't received it or any word about it. Maybe it's posse time.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

Everhigher · Regular Member Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 47

Hello, Vessehune:

You've now joined a long list and honorable fraternity of trusting people who have been abused by Mark Van Cleave in exactly the same way you've experienced. I'm not suggesting that you should have known this, since references to Van Cleave's shady business practices have long since disappeared into the archives here at TH. And, happily, we've not had to hear this sad story repeated in a long while. But, rest assured, there are many of us who have sent our money with the highest expectation, based on Van Cleave's reputed playing ability, only to ultimately find our money taken and no instructional material to show for it. I have a cancelled check, endorsed by "Mark Van Cleave"; I'm still waiting for the instructional books, three years later. I'm not really waiting, of course; it was clear almost immediately that nothing was going to happen, since every communication I made was ignored. There ARE those who have ordered items and received what they wanted. But in any recounting of this nefarious activity, they have always seemed to be heavily outnumbered by those who have sent money and received nothing. I flinch each and every time I read a positive reference to Mark Van Cleave -- usually related to his personality or trumpet skills -- because I fear that, sooner or later, someone else who reads it will order Van Cleave's stuff and have the same dismal experience you, I and many others have had. I find positive references to TPO -- Trumpet Players Online -- repugnant, because they suggest that Van Cleave, presumably still the poprietor of that domain, is reliable. I think it likely that even in this exchange someone will come forward to tell us what a swell guy Mark Van Cleave is, how this must be an oversight, etc., etc., etc. Some years ago we were told that he was reorganizing, that, yes, there had been some problems, but that those would soon be a thing of the past. In the end this proves to be complete nonsense. The FACT is that even now you've had the same empty experience of so many others. I'm willing to bet that there are still more. The same sordid process continues to occur. The only way to deal with it, as far as I can see, is to do what you've done: report it publicly, elicit responses from others who share the experience, and hope that Mark Van Cleave's online presence and any other means by which he may defraud people, will finally disappear. Van Cleave may be an hellacious player. But this does not justify the repeated abuse -- and by most definitions, dishonest -- treatment of people who take his playing reputation to mean that he's an honorable person. Thanks for having the courage to make your post!

Al Pickard

_________________
"If it touches the heart, it's music; if it doesn't, it's noise." -- Mark Levinson

[ This Message was edited by: Everhigher on 2003-07-01 12:06 ]

trickg · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 9:28 am Post subject:

I'm not trying to defend Mark, only suggesting that there is a possibility that maybe he isn't trying to cheat anybody and it may be nothing more sinister than he might be extremely unorganized. This doen't make it right by any means, only that he get's an order,cashes the check (even unorganized people can be organized when it comes to money) and then loses the order in a mountain of junk in the office, never to be seen again. So yes, time goes by and the order does not get filled because even though the check may have been cashed, the record of that trasaction also gets lost in the mound of rubble on the desk or elsewhere. Add to this that he's probably got a pretty heavy playing schedule and toss a good helping of life on top of that, and the business part of all of it falls to the wayside.

Again, I'm not suggesting that this is the best way to run a business, but it could be a likely senario. I hope for all of you that Mark gets caught up with everything and tries to make everything right for those of him that have sent him money and haven't received their goods.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

Vessehune · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:01 am Post subject:

Jim, I just filed a complaint with Paypal, but since it had been more than 30 days they couldn't do much. So if you don't receive it soon file a complaint before the 30 day deadline. That might at least get Mark's attention.

AverageJoe · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:04 am Post subject:

I have long heard of Van Cleave's prowess as a player, however, I have never heard anything positive about him as a businessman. In addition to stories like this one, I have a good friend who booked him for a weekend of masterclasses, lessons, and a concert back in 1996, and he weaseled out of it 2 DAYS before the event -- didn't even give an explanation or an apology! Thankfully, there was no money given up front to Van Cleave (it was contingent upon "services rendered" -- my friend is pretty shrewd that way). However, there were many disappointed trumpet students and the headache of refunding ticket moneys for the cancelled events. Some people drove in from hours away -- there was no way to warn everybody on such short notice.

Just another confirmation of what you guys already know....Steer clear of Van Cleave!

Paul Poovey

fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:07 am Post subject:

Maybe he should hire an online service or pay someone in his family like his wife or a responsible kid to take care of his online transactions instead of trying to do it all by himself? I think if he's unorganized and he's swamped then he needs to ask for help rather than make a bunch of people mad. Just my 2 cents worth...
_________________
J. Fowler
"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!"

trickg · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:27 am Post subject:

I totally agree with you but remember, he is a trumpet player after all and maybe his ego has him believing that there isn't anything wrong with how he's handling business.

Well, people develop a reputation very quickly by word of mouth and by internet forums such as this one so the only person that is really going to suffer in the aftermath of Mark's actions is one Mark VanCleeve himself, regardless of how fantastic a player he might be. No one wants to deal with someone if you have serious doubts about their ability to fulfill their part of the deal. There are LOTS of great trumpeters out there capable of delivering much of the same things as he does, and without the headache.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

Lex Grantham · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:51 am Post subject:

Maybe someone needs to file a formal complaint with the State Attorney General's office in the state where MVC does his business.

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

jhatpro · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 12:02 pm Post subject:

VH,

Thanks for the tip. I'll wait a week or so to give him a chance to answer my email and then contact PayPal.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

Don Lee · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:18 pm Post subject:

It was a year or more ago that I sent MVC a check for his book (books?) and never received anything or any answer to my many emails. I would have to go back and see if the check was cashed. Eventually I just gave up and figured I had been ripped off.

Don Lee

LFRoberts5 · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:39 pm Post subject:

I have both books! Shall I make copies?
_________________
Student of the Trumpet!
It's not about us....It's about God!

mafields627 · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:56 pm Post subject:

Let the xeroxing begin! Heck, I'll send MVC the $15 and just get a copy from you.

_________________
--Matt--
http://mafields627.tripod.com

[ This Message was edited by: mafields627 on 2003-07-01 20:57 ]

TrumpetAdam · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:02 pm Post subject:

I'll take a copy! hehe
_________________
Adam Zwebti
=============================
Bach Stradivarius 37
Schilke 14
my trumpet
=============================

trumpet112002 · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:09 pm Post subject:

Yea, it happened to me as well. I waited over two months and then just gave up. On the third month, I attented TMEA in San Antonio and came across a Vendor of the book. I told him my problem and he apologized for Mark and said he was very busy. The vendor just handed me the book and said he was sorry. oh well. The book wasn't worth the wait anyway. I mean, it's another exercise book, that's it, there are other superior methods out there, search, try: Colin Advanced Lip Flex, Irons, David Hickman's set of great methods, there are too many to mention. Take care everyone.

Vessehune · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 9:23 pm Post subject:

Just scan it into a PDF file. I'll trade you Bud Brisbois Trumpet Today for the VanCleave Books!!!

oj · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:33 am Post subject:

I'm really sorry for MVC
- he never used his own thinking ("smart practice") in regards to his own business on the net.

Btw, I have his books.

Some of the exercises are kind of "Bill Adam", so just go to a friend of MVC, Mark Minasian and look up "The Adam Routine".

Here:

http://emedia.leeward.hawaii.edu/minasian/adamrout.html

If you want printed exercises, Minasian has 3 PDF-files here:

http://emedia.leeward.hawaii.edu/minasian/adam.html

On MVC's site you can read about "smart practice" and "ROC" (resonant oral cavity).

On flexibility MVC uses harmonic lip slur exercises (all 7 valve postions)

Example:

C-G-C-G-C
(legato, start on low C up to G, up to C in staff, then down to G and low C, all eight notes).

Decrescendo when ascending (usual practice is opposite) and crescendo when descending.
Lowest notes the loudest, highest note softest.

Good luck!

Ole

Skip · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:19 pm Post subject:

I too, unfortunately, have ordered his 2 books & received nothing.

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

I say we feed him to the lions at his next Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus Gig.

At least Alex delivers his product.

romey

BenDover · Regular Member Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 70

The only product that Alex "delivers" is a steamin' pantload...

At least we can all smell him coming!

BenDover