Joined: 22 Mar 2002 Posts: 1155 Location: Kansas City, MO
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject:
Tim are you on a Royal Ship right now? I've seen some extremes from ship to ship with Royal. When I was on the Oasis the medical staff were great, but I couldn't care to ever go back to the Voyager..ever. _________________ BM Oklahoma City University
Pursuing MM at UMKC's Conservatory.
http://www.jonkratzer.com
This is a fascinating discussion. Thanks for starting it!
Glad to help.
There are some good things that happened, too, that I'll be posting on later. Right now I'm trying to get settled in back on dry land. _________________ Tim Wendt
Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 104 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject:
As soon as I get my technology on... _________________ Doug Mac
'10 lacquer 1600i
'73 Silver Bach 37/180
'58 Conn Director Coprion
Dillon Rose Brass Bell Flugel
Sorry I haven't posted more lately, been trying to get settled in from returning.
There were some really good things about the gig. These would include:
- With a few exceptions, the majority of the crew were not only easy to work with & get along with, but many were a whole lot of fun to hang with. It was nice get out & be with people who you didn't see & work with every day.
Yes, there were a few exceptions who were some of the biggest jerks (about as strong as TH allows you to say) who I would have loved to seen walk a plank in shark-infested waters...but ya can't have everything.
- With one exception, every musician in the orchestra was a true joy to hang with. I was amazed day after day just how well the orchestra got along, personality & character wise. We were always cracking jokes & telling stories, played gags on each other (never during shows)...it was a lot of fun and sure made the other ship idiocy more bearable.
It was not uncommon for us to eats meals together & hang on shore.
For a while, my horn section was an Argentinian (tenor), a Ukrainian (trombone), a Filipino (2nd trumpet), a Pole (alto), and me (Hoosier American). Every one of them had an accent about as thick as you could imagine, and many times it made for some hilarious communication.
I also MC'd the big band dances, and at one point in the set I'd take a moment & introduce the band, giving home towns & countries. Then I'd say "My horn section speaks a combined language of Argentinifiliukrapolishican."
One time (no, not at band camp), the tenor & 2nd trumpet were having a discussion on the stand before rehearsal. The tenor sat to my left & down one tier, 2nd trumpet to my immediate right. Even tho they were speaking English, I couldn't understand but maybe every other word they said. They were both saying "Huh?" What did you say?"
The punch line came when my 2nd trumpet said "I can't understand a word you saying - you accent too thick!!!"
That had all of us rolling & laughing.
- It took a while & there needed to be one big personnel change, but eventually the stage, sound & light crew were about as good as I have ever worked with...anywhere. Not only did everyone know how to do their job but they always did it at their best. They quickly learned how we liked things set up, they anticipated what we might need, and anything else, all we had to do was ask & if it could happen, it would.
Never was there any attitude from them. There was only one thing they asked for from us (that I'll bring up in another post) that I had never been asked to do before.
Because of them, our job was SO much easier to do, and we all had as much fun doing it as we could.
Them I will truly miss.
- We got to see some nice ports. Several had AMAZING ice cream. If ya ever get to Bar Harbor ME, ya gots to go to C.J.'s Big Dipper. And in Phillipsburg, St. Maarten, it's Vanille & Chocolat.
- Beers in the crew bar were a dollar, wine $2, mixed drinks maybe $4.
- This particular ship would throw the crew a party once a month (usually themed, free softs & beers), and several times they gave us a crew-only BBQ. Those were pretty yummy.
- For a while we had a Captain who, on the first sea day of each cruise, have waffles & ice cream on the bridge for crew only. The announcement would come over the crew area PA - "Waffles, waffles, waffles!" & we'd then go to the bridge. Most of the bridge officers were very cool & they'd answer just about any question you had.
Of course, this was also done so that they could see a sampling of the female crew, especially those in the cast. Hey - I got ice cream - I was happy!
- There were often crew-only special excursions in some ports. I could never go to any because we always had rehearsal. One that I wish I could have gone on was a $5 catamaran sail to a cove where they then swam & snorkeled with manta rays. The NASA tour in Cape Canaveral was $10 for crew, and it was a terrific tour. _________________ Tim Wendt
- For my first 2 months on board, there were NO NAPKINS in either the crew or staff chow halls. This really irked me. Eating civilly includes the use of napkins. To me, it's a basic meal requirement. When I asked about it, I was told you had to fend for yourself, which meant going into one of the bathrooms and grabbing paper towels to use. The 2 wash sinks in the chow halls were almost always empty of towels.
After the first 2 months, napkins showed up sporadically. Sometimes paper, sometimes cloth, sometimes only in the crew mess.
- The food was horrendous. I developed a nice friendship with one of the ship doctors who told me the crew food was the reason for many crew health issues. High blood pressure, constipation, GI issues - you name it. You'd think that a DOCTOR could do something about it, but he was told to leave the food to the cooks.
We often got leftover pax food. I don't mean a sammich with a bite out of it, but it was most def food they did not eat, and it was often up to several days old.
Some of the things the cooks created from those leftovers...oy vey!!
It was no wonder that the crew were the last stop for food before it was chummed up & given to the fishies.
- The mess staff would clean the salt & pepper shakers using the same rags they had just sprayed with a disinfectant & wiped the tables down with. After I saw that, it was the little packages of salt & pepper for me ONLY.
- The "meat sauce" for pasta was often gravy. Thin, brown gravy. Yeah, it had "meat" as a base, but c'mon!!
- More often than not, the plates we used were fresh out of the dryer and were almost scalding hot.
- Conversely, the food we were served in the staff mess was almost always cold. I could never figure out, when I was there right when the chow hall was open for business, why the food was cold. I'm there at 6:02 PM, the hall had just opened at 6:00...and all the "hot" food was cold.
Then one day, I was sitting in the staff chow hall about 4:15, reading & relaxing. Food for the crew hall was served & open at 4:30, staff hall wasn't open until 6. What I saw was the food for the staff was put out shortly after the crew hall opened, giving it the better part of an hour to lose any heat it might have.
- Meats were always overcooked. The only food that was consistently served hot & was also pretty yummy, were baked ham, Brussel sprouts, and soups.
- For about the entire month of February and into the beginning of March, we were at OPP Elevated Level 2. OPP is "Outbreak Prevention Plan," and is enforced to prevent or try to control outbreaks of GI health issues. At OPP EL2, the crew, along with doing our regular duties, also had to do "barrier cleaning." That means getting a cloth & spray disinfectant and basically sanitizing the ship from top to bottom.
We also had to, for the better part of 2 weeks, serve food to the pax in the pax buffet. Here's the thing - that was done so as to not spread any virus'...but we NEVER had to wear GLOVES! Only a silly white hat, which was to show the pax that we served them the food they chose - they could not get t themselves.
Our home port was Baltimore, and with the OPP EL2, one time we were not allowed off the ship. This was quite an inconvenience to the crew, as many of them went to a local Wal Mart to send money to their families. We were issued white paper coveralls & then had to help with cabin linen collection and distribution.
- Now, the ONE thing with the stage crew that got to me was...they complained that the 2 trumpets & trombonist were making too big of a mess on their stage floor with our spit. After that, we then had to mop the area where we sat ourselves.
Kids, I have played on the stages of some of the most famous & beautiful venues in the country. This would include Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Radio City, NJPAC, Music Center at Strathmore, The Whisky a GoGo, the Viper Room, Warner Bros. Stage 23 (for an episode of "The West Wing")...a brazillion places big & small.
And I have never even ONCE been told to mop up my own spit. Geez, in NYC if you grab a mop, GUARANTEED that some union stage hand is gonna take it out of your hands and beat you silly with it.
But intense discussions with the production manager ("it's not 'spit', it's breath condensation") proved fruitless. Even pointing out that the stage crew cleaned up after sweating guest acts (including several who played trumpet & "marked their territory") or that none of the dancers had to mop up THEIR sweat, we then wiped up our "droppings." What I would do is after the last performance of the night I would spread it around (thin it out) with my shoe. When I returned a few minutes later with some rags or paper towels...it had mysteriously evaporated on its own...just like it would have eventually.
So yeah, along with the usual ship silliness, there were things like this to contend with. _________________ Tim Wendt
Joined: 22 Mar 2002 Posts: 1155 Location: Kansas City, MO
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Now, the ONE thing with the stage crew that got to me was...they complained that the 2 trumpets & trombonist were making too big of a mess on their stage floor with our spit. After that, we then had to mop the area where we sat ourselves.
The blackshirts seem to do this on every ship, I just take one of smaller white towels from the crew linen and kept it in the case. The blackshirts complain about it because their PMs often stress them about getting the pit/stage struck immediately after the show. Imagine lying in a puddle of wet while striking stands,wires, etc.
I can't tell the countless times I've heard scream into the pit "You've got 5 minutes and the pit is going up, be out of here by then please." Some things you just can't fight on ships.
Oh, and unless prices doubled since January 16th, Mixed drinks are $2.30. _________________ BM Oklahoma City University
Pursuing MM at UMKC's Conservatory.
http://www.jonkratzer.com
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject:
trpthrld wrote:
Yeah, I remember hearing of an audition in the mid 80s for a name band (I think Ray Charles) who was going to do a European tour. All the guys were sitting around, figuring how much, because of the extreme low pay, it would end up costing them out of their pocket if they got the gig.
That would have been complicated, as Ray's management paid a fixed per diem to all the band members, and you didn't know hotel rates until you got into Europe.
(I don't doubt your account, just saying, calculating your net pay rate was a bit more complicated than that. Generally speaking, per diem covered most of the out-of-pocket living expenses like hotels and meals. Then guys like me would blow the profit on "extracurricular activities" like beer, etc.) _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 4 Location: usually midwest USA
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:53 pm Post subject: What happened?
Hi trumpeters, new guy here. More accurately, new to posting. I am shocked by these tales of what a ship "musician's" job description has become.
I worked a couple of times on ships in the 1980s, and my job description was to play music, for one act, two seatings nightly, period. Sometimes I would sit in with other musicians in other rooms for something to do. We ate great food with the officers. We drank in any bar we wanted at about a 70% discount, although the Officer's Bar was still quite a bit cheaper than that and a lot more private, so we spent most of our drinking time in there.
If everyone in the band could play, it was basically like taking a vacation where you played a couple of hours at night. Other people did everything for you, cooking, cleaning, laundry, dry cleaning. This lifestyle got the best of some guys who ended up staying there for years and years, because it was a very care-free lifestyle. I was newly divorced and happy to get out of town and have no responsibility aside from making the gig each night. I had a blast hiking, diving, meeting a never-ending stream of women.
For guys who liked booze too much like me it was both a paradise and a nightmare. I drank more than I ate or slept, and I doubt I ever spent more than $15 in a week. For guys who liked street drugs it was also a paradise. I remember being told by my friends not to get too comfortable because 'cruise ship gigs lead to more cruise ship gigs'.
I mean no disrespect, but I thought this story must be a put-on. trpthrld you are a stronger man than I for sticking it out. Thanx for sharing your experience. Maybe it's good that any work at all exists on the ships for Americans with skills. Dumb question, but are all the cruise lines like this now? JJ
what you described was exactly what I experienced the very first time I worked a ship, Aug. 1994.
What I have written about on this thread, and combining that with the 2nd time I worked a ship (2 years ago), is, to the best of my 3-cruise contract experience, generally what is happening on ships even as we speak.
It used to be ship musicians were treated with respect. Pretty sad what today is, isn't it? _________________ Tim Wendt
So I have given some thought to going out since my time in the war is winding down. Man that sounds way different than stories of yesteryear. So can one shed? Was it worth doing? Will you go again?
Man that sounds way different than stories of yesteryear.
Yep, no doubt about that. Used to be musicians had privileges & respect & there was dignity to the job.
Now the prevailing attitude from everyone, including the guy who contracts you, is "If you don't like it, pack your bags & we'll let you off at the next port, where you'll be on your own for getting home."
(there are a few caveats to that like if you're not an American & you're let off in an American port, the company HAS to pay for your plane ticket home - you are not allowed to stay in the States.)
Not to brag, but I played my tookus off every time I put the horn to my mouth. With the exception of fellow musicians & the guest acts & occasional pax, NO ONE on the ship ever said "Hey, you sound great & we can tell the band plays better with you here."
Not the MD (who are afraid of competition for their position), the Cruise Director (who has his hands full of running everything else on the ship + they're so used to having mediocre players that they are clueless when someone solid is there), nor the Hotel Director (see "clueless" above) - and those are the people who, if they want, can help make your life easier.
rufflicks wrote:
So can one shed?
One the ship I just finished - not really. With the design of the ship, there was no place I could go to practice without the possibility of disturbing pax or other crew. The ship I did 2 years ago..yes. There were 2 big dressing rooms backstage that were completely isolated from pax and other crew. You could go 24-7 there if you wanted.
My practicing / warmup was almost always done in my cabin with a practice mute (something I personally hate doing)...plus you're not supposed to play in the cabins anyway. Other practice was done in the wings or backstage, but the problem with that was there was almost always something happening on stage. Dancer rehearsals, lectures, movies, port & shopping mind-altering talks, etc.
Another place I could was the production office, but it was right next to pax cabins + there was almost always some other crew in there, using a computer terminal.
rufflicks wrote:
Was it worth doing?
I made enough to pay off a whole lot of debt I had. I came home with a small buffer of bread to keep me going for a while. I got to see a few places I hadn't seen before. I tasted some truly yummy ice cream (Bar Harbor & St. Maarten). I got to meet & hang with some really good people. I got to play for some very good guest acts, several of which I'll work with on land. And I got to have my gf out with me for 3 weeks - yeah BOY!!
But the trade-off (read previous posts)...I dunno. There were times when I was ready to say I'm outta here. I hated that I had to play with the same intensity and musicianship for $70 a day that I get paid $500 a day for when I work with Aretha in NYC. And that no one really cared but me.
A thing with RCCL & they way they pay. I was quoted a monthly rate which was then split into regular pay and what they call "vacation pay." VP is 12% of your regular pay. The catch is you do not receive VP until you have successfully competed your contract. If you quit or get fired, they keep it. It should really be called "contract completion incentive pay."
Personally I would have rather had it added to my regular pay to use as I saw fit instead of them holding it...for which you did not receive any interest..but you know good and well the company invested it & kept the interest.
rufflicks wrote:
Will you go again?
Sadly, with work being what it is, I am keeping those doors as open as I can.
Some other things to consider:
- Strong rumor is the ships will soon if not some already start adding in BMI to the physical, which is extensive and YOU PAY FOR.
All I can say on that is there sure will be a whole lotta officers (rated & non-rated) who will lose their jobs if RCCL instigates BMI.
- New hires and many returnees:
Your first 2 to 3 weeks on board are hell. The reason is, on top of rehearsals & finding your way around the ship & getting accustomed to the lifestyle, you have to go thru a whole lot of training courses. They ran from 1 to 4 hours long, and included life boat, safety, ship regulations & policies, COMPANY policies (don't drink the Kool-Aid). These will usually be early in the morning starting your first full day on the ship. You will feel rushed and pushed because everyone will be telling you what to do.
And expect scheduled classes to either be cancelled with little or no notice or the time and/or location changed, again with little or no notice.
The production shows, all of which are played with a click track, you'll probably get the music your first day and usually a performance is scheduled for the next day or the day after. You are basically thrown into the fire, because even if there is a place for you to practice, because of trainings you won't have time but to maybe look over the book & listen to the playback tracks.
- The crap you have to put up with with the cast. The cast I just finished working with were terrible. 3 singers who were clueless about pitch & style & time, the 4th stood out only because the others were so bad. Many of the dancers were 1st contract, yet because they're in the "cast" they got privileges & treatment you could only dream about.
This cast was so young and immature and untalented that we called them the "Kindergarten Kast."
Oh yeah - anyone in the cast can complain about you & your playing, but can you reciprocate? NFW.
They thought they were great, but what they never thought about was the only reason they were there is because...yes, they were "the best of the best", but that's the best of those who auditioned keeping in mind the company WILL fill every slot in the cast.
6 months on the gig and there were dancers who still missed easy moves and singers who still botched entrances. It was humiliating.
Let's see...on a 12 day cruise..the singers worked maybe 9 hours total (rehearsals & performances), and some of the dancers (those who taught dance classes)...maybe 11. And those are all padded times.
- Again, you really have no say in anything. Last Oct., we got word that the company was going to get warm jackets with company logo on it for the entire crew to wear for boat drill & other activities, and they were at no cost to us. woohoo yeah, baby! We put in our sizes & waited.
Then we got word that the company was going to require all of us to purchase company logo sweaters to wear instead of the jackets. One thing that really gets me is when I'm TOLD that I have to spend my money. When I asked what about the jackets, we were told we'd still get the jackets, but the sweaters were now what we'd be required to wear for boat drill.
We were also told the only sizes were S, M, L, XL. Kids..I'm a XXL+, and when I said I wouldn't be able to wear an XL I was told too bad, start going to the gym.
The good thing is enough crew complained & the sweaters were nixed, the jackets came on (only to XL, but I'd been to the gym), and the issue was dropped. But for several weeks there was a lot of tension about the whole silly thing.
- You are also told there are certain acceptable ways to phrase things on the ship. The biggest was "cruise vacation." You were never supposed to say either word by itself, you were to reinforce the pax brainwashing with the phrase "cruise vacation."
There were a few other phrases, but they have since left my brain.
Jon, you are used to putting up with silliness fro your AF time. If you can let a whole lot of stupidity roll off your shoulders then yes, I'd say give it a try. But if you are accustomed to sensible and reasonable organization and not having to be at the whim & wish of those who can't even carry your trumpet case, then no, it ain't for you.
I'll close this with a fav story from my time on the ship. Dino, the solo guitarist, who was a great guy & wonderful player, was one time asked by another crew about what made him so special that he only worked 2 hours a day at the most. Dino happened to have some music with him. He handed it to the guy & said "Can you tell me what all that says to do?" and the guy said "No."
Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 104 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:05 pm Post subject:
Tim,
Couple of things. What's BMI? And what do you attribute the change in attitude towards the musicians to? It sure seems as if there are lot of unreasonable people to deal with. _________________ Doug Mac
'10 lacquer 1600i
'73 Silver Bach 37/180
'58 Conn Director Coprion
Dillon Rose Brass Bell Flugel
Tim,
Couple of things. What's BMI? And what do you attribute the change in attitude towards the musicians to? It sure seems as if there are lot of unreasonable people to deal with.
Well..I'm no doctor...but I'd play one on TV if I was ever cast!
BMI is Body Mass Index.
According to dictionary.com:
"An index for assessing overweight and underweight, obtained by dividing body weight in kilograms by height in meters squared: a measure of 25 or more is considered overweight."
Even though you have to pass an extensive physical before being hired (and you have to get one every 2 years), you can still pass but not look good in uniform or onstage, plus all the other health issues that come with being overweight. The ship does provide medical care while on the ship, and if they have a healthier crew to start with...well, you see.
The physical includes all the normal stuff (BP & such, which you cannot have high blood pressure to pass), a full blood workup, urinalysis AND a drug urinalysis test (separate samples), eyes, ears, a full chest x-ray & EKG.
Why the change in attitude? Sadly, it's gone right along with what I perceive is the general attitude toward professional musicians overall - that they're nothing special and that you can always find someone who will do the same job for less money.
There are stories of musicians who took gross advantage of ship privileges & that really messed things up for everyone.
Why does the cast get treated so much better? A lot of Cruise Directors are former cast members. Can we say "inbreeding"?
The ship would rather the musicians never be seen except when working, whereas they encourage the cast to "mingle."
Another reason is the ship has a LOT of money invested in each cast. The cost of several auditions and then there's the 4 - 6 weeks of cast rehearsals prior to them joining a ship. That time includes hotel, food & wages for the cast, which number anywhere from 8 to 16, maybe more on some ships. That can add up to some serious coinage, and it's very difficult to replace a cast member in a given cast.
They also make MORE MONEY STARTING OUT than musicians, with Boy & Girl Singer 1 making some serious bread.
The cast is a "whole" whereas musicians are individuals, at least the orchestra musicians are. So it's much easier to replace a musician than a cast member. The only investment the ship has in a musician is the cost of a plane ticket & one night in a hotel with a paltry food allowance.
And I guarantee you they will get the cheapest plane ticket they can find with no regard to layovers & plane changes.
The ship I did 2 years ago, and the trumpet guy I replaced. He was from New Zealand. He got an emergency call on Xmas Eve day to do a month fill-in with leaving on Dec. 26. They flew him direct from new Zealand to Buenos Aires. I mean STRAIGHT there.
But when his month contract was finished, and even though he bailed them out with the last-minute call, his return flight from Buenos Aires was:
Buenos Aires - Miami.
Miami - JFK
JFK - San Francisco
SFO - Sydney Australia
Sydney to NZ
If there's a direct flight from NZ to BA...shouldn't there be a direct from BA - NZ?
2 1/2 days in airports and airplanes. NO money for hotels or food. On your return flight you are completely on your own if you want to eat or sleep. _________________ Tim Wendt
Tim,
Wow thanks for the information. I am used to a certain amount of sub par decision making and or management, but not what you are describing. I love playing and want to keep doing it once retired from the AF. Gigs in SF have thinned way out. The show guys are shaking their heads at what is currently going on. Even the salsa gigs I play have diminished. Time to move to China.
If ya really wanna try it, contact the ships about filling in for vacations or quick short-term replacements. It's kind of hard to get on that list as a lot of guys want to do the same thing & the ships try to use musicians who have done full contracts so that they know how they'll fit in or not.
Another thing about treatment and the general perception of musicians. When the seas get rough (8'-13") and higher, the cast will start whining about having to work on a stage that's not level and the ship is bouncing all around the place for fear of injury to the dancers. The ship will often bow to their wishes and schedule something else in the theatre in it's place.
And that will almost always be the musicians perform. I once had a conversation with a Cruise Director on the hazards of wind musicians performing in seas where the ship is bouncing all over the place. She said "But the dancers could trip and possibly twist an ankle or knee." I said "Yes, and brass musicians, with that PIECE OF HARD METAL ON THEIR FACE, could cut a lip wide open or knock out a tooth."
She replied "But you're not playing all the time." I of course said "And they're not dancing all the time. Plus it takes a whole lot longer to recover from a split lip or busted tooth."
She said "oh, I'm sure you'll be OK."
Didn't it take Raphael over 2 years of work & practice to recover from his chop busting?
We sailed when there were hurricanes. One cruise in particular we were in 20' + waves. Of course the production show for that night was cancelled and a guest act was inserted. The act that night was a very good show - "Tribute - a Salute to The Temptations."
Now, those guys did a lot of the same moves as the Tempts do, and even the simplest was harder than anything the cast did in a production show. But the ship would rather have sacrificed a twisted ankle for a guest act than one of the cast.
And of course the orchestra backed the act. We had done this act before and I really enjoyed playing for them. I've worked with the real Temptations, and these guys do a very good tribute.
This is a clip I took on my iPhone. Please remember - 20' PLUS waves, the ship being throw about the seas. Sorry about it being on its side.
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