Low Notes Lead the way to High Notes

Annie · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 11:40 am Post subject:

Does anyone else here work along the lines of low notes will help you master the focus and control needed for high notes?
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*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.*

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

Both ends of the spectrum tell you a great deal about the health of your playing. If you have screaming high notes but the low end sounds foggy, you have trouble. If the low register sounds great but no high chops, you have trouble. You need the complete range as part of being a good musician. If you want a better high register, spend time practicing well in the high register. The sound at both ends tells you a lot, if you really listen.

Dave Bacon

_Don Herman · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:18 am Post subject:

What Dave said.

My short answers:

Yes -- if done properly.
No -- if not (then you can develop multiple embouchures and all sorts of ills).

What's "properly"? Ask your teacher. Also discussed endlessly (well, quite a bit; EVERYBODY exaggerates!

)on this board (search) and my 2 cents on this subject ain't worth all that much so I'll shut up.

FWIW - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

The answer probably is yes and no. Perhaps someone has already said that here.

Initially pedal tones helped me develop a pretty good high G embouchure, but that's as far as it went. I still play that way but now practice on another embouchure that has double and triple C capability. On this second embouchure low note practicing actually screws the thing up during the formative stage of learning the embouchure. This is because I'd drop my jaw to play low and slip out of the embouchure altogether. Now that the newer embouchure has progressed low notes help a lot, but that wasn't the case before.

Granted double C's might not be all that necessary for you or any of us, but it's nice to be able to have one and sure makes the high G and lesser notes a piece of cake. A lot of Baroque and other Classical parts are easier to play if the player has extra range.

Playing on my older embouchure is more physically demanding. It is also hard to play softly up high this way. The newer embouchure can hold double C's for a long time. Take your pick.

Occasionally you'll find some really good screamin players who have poor quality lower registers. They usually grow out of this phase with time if they work on it. There's an article in a Kenton anthology I read about a trumpet player who was unbelievable above high C but next to worthless below high C. I found the story funny.

Lee

Castle Bravo · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Apr 2003 Posts: 542

The secret for me is to be able to do the pedals and the screamin with the same lip set.....

Annie · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:50 am Post subject:

The way my instructor has me work with pedals and such is he has me do arpeggios to the upper range and back down without taking a breath/moving the mouthpiece and such. Lol, when I can do an arpeggio starting from pedal F going up to High c and back I know it's a good playing day. I'm just gonna guess that at least for now I seem to be doing things right.
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~Annie

*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.*

_Clarino · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:42 am Post subject:

The players I know with the highest ranges also have the best pedal notes. This is due to developing your range correctly. As others have already said here, those who only practice high notes will lose their lower register. The key is to EXPAND your whole range.

C
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dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Hello Everybody,

Hate to break the news to you all but Maynard, Bud Brisbois, Cat Anderson and Bill Chase never played pedal tones.

Bud told a story once about trying them for a few days......He totally lost all his high chops. He said he would never try that again.

If you place your mouthpiece very high on your top lip (at least a good 2/3rd's or more) the pedals might work for you.

Everybody else........Stay away from them, unless you want to develop multiple embrouchures.

[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2003-07-21 19:24 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:10 am Post subject:

Does anyone else here work along the lines of low notes will help you master the focus and control needed for high notes?

If pedals are what you mean by low notes, then that topic has been covered many times on the TH. This is one of the better threads that you could take a look at.

http://trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=708&forum=2

Remember, not everyone needs pedals, but when done correctly, everyone can benefit. Some, obviously benefit more than others.

OTOH, if you just mean low notes down to low F#, then playing them softly can improve the over all balance in the embouchure and therefore have a positive effect on all registers.

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I took a lesson with Carmine in the late 1970's and he said nothing about pedal tones.

It's seems to me that pedal tones would be in direct conflict with Caruso's method. Isn't the point of his interval studies with the "long setting" to keep you playing on one embouchure all over the horn?

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2003-07-23 04:39 ]

tomba51 · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:11 am Post subject:

Chris,

You say that you took a lesson with Carmine Caruso and he said nothing about pedal tones. If I read your post correctly, you took ONE lesson with Carmine. Carmine definately assigned pedal tones to his students. In fact, they are in his book, "Musical Calisthenics for Brass". However, Carmine usually didn't assign pedals until after several lessons, when the student got to the point that Carmine felt that the student was ready for them.

Hope this helps.

Tom
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Tom Barreca

slip0106 · Veteran Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 174

Hey Chris,

About pedal tones ... they can be very benificial ... or not. Depends on if you do them correctly and in proper context. They shoud be playeon the same emboucher yes. You should play everything on the same emboucher ... in theory

They're calisthics, and that's it really.

E-mail me if you want & we can talk about them.

Michael
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I use: Tony Scodwell Trumpet(s) and Bob Reeves Mpc's
contact: slip0105@hotmail.com

_Clarino · Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:06 am Post subject:

Mr.Hollywood
Veteran Member

Joined: Dec 15, 2002
Posts: 206 Posted: 2003-07-21 19:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Everybody,

Hate to break the news to you all but Maynard, Bud Brisbois, Cat Anderson and Bill Chase never played pedal tones.

Bud told a story once about trying them for a few days......He totally lost all his high chops. He said he would never try that again.

If you place your mouthpiece very high on your top lip (at least a good 2/3rd's or more) the pedals might work for you.

Everybody else........Stay away from them, unless you want to develop multiple embrouchures.

I don't know much about any of the players that you mentioned here, except Maynard, but I think I am right in thinking that these are all players who have amazing high ranges and rarely play in the lower registers. Have any of you heard them play low? The point of pedal notes is that they keep your lips flexible and relaxed enough to play with a good tone in the whole of your range as you increase it upwards (The trumpet having an obvious lower limit for true notes). players who do not keep their lips relaxed and flexible enough will find that their whole range moves upwards as their lips adjust to playing in the extreme high register. If, however, a player maintains a relaxed embouchure (by the use of pedal notes or any other method) they will be able to develop muscle memory for the high range whilst still being able to play big fat bottom As, Gs and F#s.

Hope this provides some insight.

C
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-The Simpsons

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

As Chris said:

"If you place your mouthpiece very high on your top lip (at least a good 2/3rd's or more) the pedals might work for you.

Everybody else........Stay away from them, unless you want to develop multiple embouchures".

This is probably good advice from what I've experienced and others I've known. Roy Stevens, who had some of the screamingest students around in the seventies had no part of pedal tines in his teachings. And Roy's system dictated a 2/3'ds setting on the lower lip along with an even uper/lower teeth alignment.

Problem was Roy's system didn't work for a lot of people. I've found some ways of adapting parts of Roy's method, but it took the construction of very large mouthpieces to make it work.

As far as receded jaw/upper lip dominant embouchures go pedals do seem to work well. Back during my teen years on my original (receded jaw) embouchure I was able to attain a good useable high G very quickly by using pedal tones in my practice sessions. The high G was as far as it went though.

Lee

[ This Message was edited by: leesbrass on 2003-07-26 15:08 ]

shofar · Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:19 am Post subject:

Mr Hollywood wrote:

"...Hate to break the news to you all but Maynard, Bud Brisbois, Cat Anderson and Bill Chase never played pedal tones..."

I have to disagree with this statement, because my teacher (Ralph Scafidi) and Doc and Maynard study with the same teacher (at the same time), Benny Baker, who most definately taught pedal tones. Doc (3rd book) and my Ralph (lead) both played in the original tonight show band in NY while studying with Benny and Benny would go to Canada regularly, and Maynard was one of his students. I am sure this is correct because Ralph's wife (Mary Osborne) was also the guitar player on the show. Maynard has also referred to things he learned from Benny in past interviews, etc.

The other guys you mention, I am not sure about them. The only thing I know is Cat used to hold the G for 20 minutes as part of his routine.

This could be a very interesting disscussion. I believe pedal tones help trmendously...of course playing on the same embrochure is the key. Helps to open your sound, create greater flexibility, range, breath control, etc.

Rog

Jerry Freedman · Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:02 pm Post subject:

Pedal tones are a subject for flame wars which break out often here. Pops doesn't like them but is not dogmatic about them. Callet likes them, Caruso likes them, Gordon likes them, Reinhardt doesn't. They all produce good players and they all have had failures. Try 'em, if they work for you do 'em. If they don't move on

Jerry Freedman

NELATrpt · Regular Member Joined: 07 Jul 2003 Posts: 85

My old high school band director used to swear by pedals and the adage that "learn how to play them good, the high range will follow. Then one year when I was in a La. All-Star Marching Band (1977 I believe) we had Cat Anderson as a guest soloist. Some of us trpt players were asking him questions about high range development when the subject of practicing pedals to help your high range came up. This was Cat's quote: "sounds to me that's practicing in the wrong direction".
I'll bet after that none of us within earshot of that statement (whether rightly or wrongly) gave pedals another thought.