Matching horns

[Nonsense Eliminator]

On another thread which is already home to several different topics, mafields627 wrote:

"Why should the trumpet section have to respect the wishes of the principal? I'm not away of other sections where the players follow the equipment decisions of the section. If any section did that, it seems like that would be more important in the sections that get the most playing time, the strings and woodwinds. How did this dumb tradition come about?"

A few ideas:

1.) Auditions.
When auditioning somebody on any instrument, once the committee has gotten past, "Can this person play?" one of the next big questions is, "How well will this person's sound fit in the section?" Playing a setup that's drastically different from the principal's is unlikely to aid in that respect. So orchestras are going to tend to select people who play similar equipment to what they're used to.

2.) Price.
Trumpets are cheap. (Okay, maybe not Monettes -- but compared to a fiddle they're still pretty reasonable.) So the question becomes not, "Why match instruments?" but "Why not?"

3.) Bud.
The CSO trumpet section has played matching equipment since the Reiner days, and they sound pretty darn good. That is usually cited as the origin of this "dumb tradition". Maybe the horns don't have anything to do with it. But maybe they do.

4.) Bachs are everywhere.
Because most orchestral players use Bach trumpets, if you pick three trumpeters at random, chances are pretty good that all three will play Bachs. So people are used to matched sections, and some sections match by coincidence rather than an edict from the first trumpet.

5.) Tenure.
In a lot of orchestras, the principal trumpet has a lot of influence in determining whether new members of the section get tenure. Somebody coming into a matched section might be pretty tempted to play the same horn as the other players.

The bottom line is, the job of section players (in any section) is to make the principal player sound good and match his or her sound. If that job is made easier by spending $1500 on a new trumpet, I can't think of a reason not to do so.

By the way, it is not true at all that other sections don't tend to match horns. (And, of course, not all trumpet sections do.) Trombone and horn sections have been known to be at least as picky. Even if sections aren't playing the same make and model, in virtually all cases they are choosing similar-sounding instruments.

[ This Message was edited by: Nonsense Eliminator on 2003-07-16 11:43 ]

[redface]

I've always thought the job of the second player is to make the principal sound as fantastic as possible. You should try and emulate their rhythmic, articulation and tuning tendencies and aim try produce a sound that complements that of the prinicipal. If that means using a different mouthpiece/trumpet/mindset then so be it. I often find myself using a slightly deeper mouthpiece when I play down the line, to create a darker sound than the principal so it complements his/her sound (esp. when in octaves). It's a whole different ball game when 2nd trumpet is your job - you are paid to serve the needs of the trumpet section, brass section and the orchestra as a whole, even if your musical desires are contrary to those of others.

[ This Message was edited by: redface on 2003-07-16 13:38 ]

[mafields627]

Thanks for taking the time to help me better understand this. I guess I just find it hard to see how the equipment you're playing on matters so much when everyone always say that what you play on doesn't matter as long as you sound good. I guess, though, that the professional symphony is a different level and on that level sounding the same within the section is of utmost importance. I'm also beginning to understand the postition that the principal player is in. He's the man and the rest of the section has to help make him look good.
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--Matt--

No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!

[pushyred]

Here is a wonderful article written by a fellow Ligotti student. It should be required reading for us all. Not only the role of the second and third trumpet players but the mix of trumpet brands used in their section.

http://www.trumpetguild.org/pdf/2002journal/0201orch.pdf

Michelle

[KevinInGeorgia]

I agree that Everyone should read that article.. It's a great article..
Also at the Professional Symphony players have such a great control of not only the trumpet but there ear knows the sound that they want or have to achieve that they can change there sound.
Not to get into a debate about Trumpet vs. Cornet but an example from my teacher is when he was working on his masters in NYwhile hw was playing Professionally. He was taking a Pedagogy class of some kind.. The professor asked my teacher to bring in his trumpet & he would provide him with a cornet so they could demonstrate the difference in sound between a Cornet & a Trumpet. They put him behind a screen & asked him to play different musical excerpts on each instrument at Random & for him to make note of what he played it on as the class would right down what they thought he was playing. For the first 5 or 6 he was feeling out the horns & by the 7or8th piece the sound was almost the same on both Horns. He was always known for having great intonation & being able to match anyone’s sound that is what makes a GREAT section player.

It's not about the Horn its all about the Sound & what the Principal player wants.
_________________
Kevin M.
Sounds of Sawnee Community Band

“Heroes turn into martyrs on this instrument.” ~ William Vacchiano

[riffdawg2000]

Me - another Ligotti student...adding $0.02 ...

Read the above two post ... DITTO ... One of the things that was taught (stressed) in our lessons was to match Mr. Ligotti...just like a 2nd/3rd/etc player...and encouraging duets with others. (Ask Kevin ... we played duets all the time together way back when) Switching parts thus 'matching' whoever was on the 1st part.

Okay, I agree that playing 'matched' horns is a plausible theory, but even IF the principle is playing a different horn, it is up to YOU ... the 2nd/3rd, etc ... to match her/him. Whatever it takes, you must match them ... i.e. another horn/mouthpiece, etc.

Personally, even if I were making $75k a year in a professional orchestra (I wish), I would do everything in my power to match the principle ...WITHOUT changing my horns. ( I have this thing about paying SUPER bucks on something – like Monette) I think it is more of an 'ear' thing than anything else.

*** Nothing against a Monette or other ‘superhorns’, I just personally cannot justify spending that much money on anything but…uh… A HOUSE!

~Joel~
_________________
Joel Thomas

[KevinInGeorgia]

3 of us Ligotti Students all in a Row ~we're becoming a force to be Reckoned with.

The nice things about our teacher is her would give you enough rope to hang yourself.. he would let you develop your ear & find the sound you wanted.. He would let you use whatever equipment you wanted to use.. I find that too many teachers especially of younger students try to pigeon hole students into using certain equipment.. ..Stuff like you have to use a certain brand of Mouthpiece or a Certain size.. Have to use a particular horn to achieve the "Right" sound.

A good Example of Pigeon holing a section that I've heard about was a Drum Corp ( Don't remember which one) that required all the Sopranos to play on CG Mouthpieces.. Not everyone's face/lips are made so they can play on a CG3..
_________________
Kevin M.
Sounds of Sawnee Community Band

“Heroes turn into martyrs on this instrument.” ~ William Vacchiano

[JackD]

[trickg]

That was a great article! He summed up and said much of what I believe about myself as a section player but have never really been able to put into words, although in my case the support that I provide is to the lead player of a big band as opposed to an orchestra, but much of it applies just the same.

In the big band where I sit fourth book, ALL of the trumpet players are playing different horns:

Lead - Benge 90B Silverplated, valve ports have been modified due to a factory defect on the original configuration
2nd - Edwards, silver plated, not sure which leadpipe or bell
3rd - Yamaha Z in Silver plate
4th - Me - LB Bach Strad, 25 bell, silver plated

Still, that being said, how we blend as a section is always considered and that configuration seems to work, although since this is a smaller unit and it isn't a professional group, it isn't likely that we would ever be forced to adopt the same make and model horn as the lead. But, when my time finally comes to get a new horn (when I'm not spending thousands of bucks on my kids, home improvement, etc) how I sound on the new horn in the section will be a consideration. Again, bottom line for me as a section player is to support the lead, make his job easier and to blend with the section.

Great inputs everyone, especially the ITG article.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[walter]

Nice thread.

One of my teachers was Seymour Rosenfeld of the Philadelphia Orchestra. He almost always played 2nd during his tenure. He had a falling out with Vincent Bach at some point, and played Benges most of his career, to my knowledge. He also sold Benge trumpets in the Philadelphia area. My main horn at the time was a Schilke C5 with various other mouthpieces. He loved my Schilke, and since this was a maverick horn at the time, he and I got into many discussions on horns. He let me try out many of the Benges that came through his hands, including the horns he personally used.

I remember one day playing the horn he used in the Philly Orchestra along with another Benge that was exactly the same model (nominally) as his orchestra horn. There was a slight difference in sound, and I really liked his non-orchestra horn more. When I asked why he used the "inferior" horn, he told me that it simply matched Gil Johnson's horn more. This began my understanding of "group sound".

Many times, Rosenfeld and Johnson would lean slightly towards each other, bringing their bells within close distance, in an effort to get the best combined sound. It was like watching 2 jazzmen doing the same ... and it worked.

I started listening much more closely to what the other musicians were doing in groups that I was playing with ... especially when I came in following them. I started copying their phrasing much more closely, and I swear that it became contagious within the groups.

Phrasing is not often discussed in this Forum. Sound timbre is definitely important, but in my mind it still falls behind phrasing, which is how we speak ... not whether we try to mimic the timbre of another person's "voice".

These days, the sounds of the various instruments is much more similar than it was only a few decades ago. Roger Voisin, Adolph Herseth, Gilbert Johnson, Bernard Adelstein, and William Vachiano (sp?) differed in sound much more than any of the principals today. Their supporting sections also often had a different timbre than the principal (especially in Boston).

Think of the trumpet fanfares in the last movement of Mahler's 7th Symphony in which the ascending arpeggio is played first by the principal, then the 2nd, then the 3rd. Arguments can be made for or against different timbres of the 3 players. Since players contemporary to ourselves all tend to want the Herseth sound, I was shocked to hear the fanfare played (on radio) by the Boston Symphony about 10 years ago. The Monette sound was obvious; but even more noticeable was how the trumpets chose to play the fanfare: elegantly, rather than as if they were charging down a football field. It was like listening to heraldry from a mythical castle. It wasn't better or worse, in my mind, than the way to which I've become accustomed. In this case, it wasn't the timbre of the Monettes so much as the phrasing that made this performance stand out.

I agree that the Bach sound differs greatly from the Monette sound; but it's not that Bach horns sound greatly different (read: better) than most other trumpets out there. I suspect that a player's choice of mouthpiece may have a greater effect on timbre than the player's choice of horns.

Unfortunately, 99% of Bach horns I've played wouldn't make the job any easier for the player. My Wild Thing in C (don't judge before you've played one for the trial period that it's maker, Flip Oakes, suggests) can match the timbre of any player I've sat next to. It's matching the phrasing that gives a sense of musicality to the written notes.

Of course, the principal establishes the musical idea, in accordance with the conductor and what's actually happening during performance, and the section follows the lead.

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2003-07-19 22:01 ]

[pushyred]

Singing the praises of our teacher is fun Kevin. I still think of his sound as being one of the most beautiful I've ever heard. His experience included playing commercial recording gigs one week and the next week sitting next to Vacchiano (his teacher) in the NY Phil, so being able to play with different sounds was very important to his success.

[ This Message was edited by: pushyred on 2003-07-21 09:27 ]