Wynton's Best Record ... Ever

stukvalve · Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:22 pm Post subject:

Hey guys,
What record do you think represents Wynton's best jazz playing and why?

I think my favorite is the second disk of his Vanguard box set. Knozz-moe-king is rediculous! I like his playing within his septet, I wish they'd tour/ record more. Black Codes is a close second.
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PH · Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 7:09 am Post subject:

Black Codes, without question.

Peak early and decline swiftly... what a bizarre career trajectory.

Xenoman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1209

_FELIX C · Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:42 am Post subject:

1984 HOT HOUSE FLOWERS. ONE OF MY FAVORITES.
SUPERB SOUND , EXCELLENT TUNNING, ENTONATION, PROJECTION, AND FELLING

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[ This Message was edited by: FELIX C on 2003-08-07 12:42 ]

thelurker · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 257

live at blues alley.. kNOe Smoe KING..is pretty cool on there too...

and the Joe Henderson alubm of Stayhorn's music; that is true wynton in his own voice on there...

_Clarino · Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:36 am Post subject:

Today I bought The Marsallis Family, "A Jazz Celebration"

I have wondered for years when they would all get together for a show. They finally did for Ellis' retirement party, a fundraiser for a chair in his name.

The Line up is:

Ellis-piano
Branford-Saxs
Delfeayo-Bone
Jason-Drums
Wynton-trumpet.
(Obviously)

With Roland Guerin on bass.

Also special guests, Harry Connick, Jr. On piano andLucien Barbarin on bone.

It's a fantastic CD, these guys really play well together! It's great when families make music together (except the osmonds-thats just scary!).

C

[ This Message was edited by: Clarino on 2003-08-07 13:44 ]

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

ZeroMan · Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 Jul 2002 Posts: 1112

Black Codes from the Underground is my favorite. I am unsure if I can declare it as his best. For all we know, the best is yet to come. Mr. Marsalis's deal with Blue Note records just became official. Jazz musicians tend to get better or more convincing with age.

From a technical standpoint, Live at the Village Vanguard is also impressive. Perhaps in 40 years some folks will be arguing if that recording was Wynton's "Plugged Nickel".

PH · Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:05 pm Post subject:

I agree that "Hot House Flowers" is also a fine album (although the arrangements are a bit overwritten). I also think that if the best moments of the Village Vanguard box had been edited to a single CD or a double CD set that there would be an equally high standard. There's just too much on there that is merely OK.

p.s. Wynton did study BRIEFLY with DB at Charles Colin's studios in NYC in 1978-79. Rumor has it he was not the most receptive of students.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-08-07 18:08 ]

jazzsolotrumpet · Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:07 pm Post subject:

I personally like Classical Wynton.

-Matt

etownfwd · Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:28 pm Post subject:

Even if you love him or hate him, you have to admit that he has had a huge part in guiding the art form of Jazz out of a rather stagnated state. You know that it was going in a REAL bad direction when people were beginning to call Kenny G a "Jazz musician". I feel violently ill at that thought. As for my favorite CD, it's gotta be all of the Live at the Village Vanguard Box Set. I agree that there might be one BADA$$ CD when you weed out all the so-so stuff inbetween. I also think that I tend to like some of his stuff more when I have a different mind-set. I used to love Cherokee from Disc One, but now I much prefer Cherokee on Disc Seven. Go figure....
-efwd
(edited due to author's spelling stupidity)

[ This Message was edited by: etownfwd on 2003-08-07 20:29 ]

bluenote · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 366

I would say the two most noted jazz trumpeters of that period (meaning the 80's) was Wynton and Terence Blanchard. Although Wynton is probably a technically superior trumpeter, I actually much prefer Terence in terms of improvisation and composition. I think as this decade goes on, Terence will be noted more so.

Just my thoughts!

ZeroMan · Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 Jul 2002 Posts: 1112

Even if you love him or hate him, you have to admit that he has had a huge part in guiding the art form of Jazz out of a rather stagnated state. You know that it was going in a REAL bad direction when people were beginning to call Kenny G a "Jazz musician". I feel violently ill at that thought.

At the risk of turning this into yet another Wynton basher (defined by Wynton fans as anyone who dares take a less than rosy view of their hero) versus Wynton fan (at times unfairly defined as someone who actually believes a lot of the Crouch-Wynton rhetorical tripe supporting their hero's delusion that he single-handedly rescued jazz) pissing match, I'm compelled to point out a few things, and ask several really blunt questions:

- Wynton and Kenny G arrived on the scene as solo artists pretty much at the same time, and their also popularity took off in parallel directions at roughly the same time. When Wynton struck the first blow in the war to rescue jazz (cough), no one was calling Kenny G anything, except maybe "that guy who plays that light krap on the sax". Or whatever.

If you are simply unable for whatever reason to believe me, compare the release dates of Duotones to Black Codes from the Underground. Both recordings were the critical and/or popular hits of each musician that truly established them in their respective genres. Yes, they both had recordings out before then, but those two were their first bona-fide "smashes".

- Jazz was healthy even though its popularity had stiffly declined after the fusion bubble popped. By fusion, I mean the undeniably NON COMMERCIAL music as promulgated by Miles Davis, Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra. ECM records was happy to expose and market some innovative artists who making some great Jazz music, like Keith Jarrett and Kenny Wheeler. Then there was Woody Shaw, Joe Farrell and many of the other post hardboppers who were playing to an interested and enthusiastic, albeit diminishing audience.

What exactly has Wynton rescued us jazz fans from?

My answer is that he "rescued" us from the "jazz" that HE didn't like, for whatever reason. Quite frankly, I didn't want to be rescued from the likes of Weather Report, Ornette Coleman, Keith Jarret, the Art Ensemble of Chicago, Cecil Taylor, Albert Ayler, Sun-Ra and Woody Shaw.

What has Wynton given us in return for vanquishing (or at least trying real hard to marginalize) those forms of "inferior" jazz?

My answer: competantly played jazz in a conservative form. While his music has done a lot to revive interest in jazz's past, it has done little, if nothing to push it forward. It's OK though- not everyone is going to be an innovator. But the same multi-million marketing machine that helped Wynton respark an interest in jazz through the force of his charisma and the technical mastery of his instrument also made it easier for Wynton to cut down the innovators of the past that he didn't approve of, both in word and dead.

Is Jazz healthier in 2003 than it was in 1973, 1983 or 1993?

That is a serious question, and to start discussing it would hijack this thread completely. I invite, no INSIST that anyone who wants to explore that topic to start a new thread. I won't discuss this any further on this thread, I won't respond to any more tangents on this thread, and I offer my apologies to the thread's initiator for going off on the first place.

{disclaimer: I own 16 recordings by Wynton Marsalis. I recently purchased a new one. I have seen live twice, and I consider him to be a fantastic musician with a sincere love for the music as he sees it. I will argue any day that he is possibly the best all-around trumpet player of the last 50 years. From an absolute standpoint, I love his music. NO, I'm not jealous of him because he's black, NO, I'm not jealous of him because he has access to a higher standard of female than I do, NO, I'm not jealous because he makes more money than I do, NO, I'm not bitter because he won the Pulitzer Prize for a mediocre piece of music while Duke Ellington died without so much an honorary mention.... and I'm happy to deny any other Crouch-esque immature responses. Oh yeah, I thought Kenny G sucked even before he abused the memory of Louis Armstrong.}

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[ This Message was edited by: ZeroMan on 2003-08-08 04:53 ]

JackD · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:48 am Post subject:

First off I can't really see how you can call Miles "not commercial"; he was a big star, and still is! Not bland and mainstream yes, but lucrative for his labels nonetheless.

I saw Wynton's septet at the Jazz Cafe on Wednesday, and it was one of the most enjoyable, if not the most enjoyable nights I have ever had! They didn't play cutting edge jazz, they played a lot of New Orleans - style jazz and trad., and it was fantastic.

I understand the point of view that sees Wynton as overly conservative, but for me, just listening to the music he produces, it's more joyful and soulful than anything I have heard Ornette Coleman play (and that's just my opinion).

Apologies for taking this thread further from it's intended topic!

PH · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:58 am Post subject:

[quote]
On 2003-08-07 20:28, etownfwd wrote:
Even if you love him or hate him, you have to admit that he has had a huge part in guiding the art form of Jazz out of a rather stagnated state.
-efwd

In a way I could be misunderstood when I said that Wynton's career trajectory was a swift decline. What I should have said was that his ART peaked early and declined swiftly. However, his popularity, visibility, and effectiveness as a spokesman for the brand of jazz he espouses has continued to grow dramatically, even as his artistic output has plateaued (or worse).

When Wynton first came on the scene it was virtually impossible to get a gig anywhere outside of Japan with a jazz combo that featured acoustic instruments and anything but funk or Latin rhythms. Wynton has made the world hospitable for straight-ahead jazz again. He has also dramatically increased the interest in jazz among young Africn-American musicians. These are very good things.

So, IMHO is he an artist on the level of Dizzy, Lee, Cliffor, Cherry, Fats, Miles, etc? No way. However, he has done jazz a tremendous service as a popularizer of the music. In years to come I suspect that his career will be respected and viewed more as someone who brought jazz to the masses. Wynton is the next in the line of Paul Whiteman, Benny Goodman, Charlie Ventura, Cannonball Adderley, Dave Brubeck, Spyro Gyra, etc. for the new millenium. That's not bad company.

redface · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 6:41 am Post subject:

jazz_trpt · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:22 am Post subject:

stukvalve · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:41 pm Post subject:

hopefully his new bluenote debut with his quartet should be good.
_________________
"It's not about working hard, It's about being organized." -Wynton Marsalis

matzentrpt@hotmail.com

bluenote · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 366

Redface:

How can you say that Wynton is a better composer than Dizzy, Lee Morgan, or Clifford Brown?! I know that someone else already addressed this, but where or when did Wynton compose anything like Con Alma, Night in Tunisia, Fiesta Mojo, or Night in Tunisia? Or Ceora, the Sidewinder, Our Man Higgins, SpeedBall? Or Joyspring, Daahoud, or Sandu?

I know some of Wynton's writing is for larger ensembles, but I think a better way of measuring is how anyone's compositions will stand the test of time. Put it this way: in fifty years, there will still be people playing Night in Tunisia or any of the other tunes I mentioned in colleges or jam sessions. I doubt they'll be playing any of Wynton's stuff.

kenwatters · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:28 pm Post subject:

In my opinion, one thing that no one can deny -- Wynton has had his own unique (& beautiful) voice on the instrument since his first album. I'm mostly talking about his identifiable SOUND... The major change in his "voice" as he's matured as a player is that it's become more & more refined. This is something that most of us strive for our entire careers.
"Black Codes" is my favorite, followed by "Live at Blues Alley."
Ken
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