Wynton's Best Record ... Ever

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

BlueNote: Are you sure Wynton is better technically than Terence Blanchard? I've seen both of them play live, and not only did Terence display about 10 times the passion Wynton did in his playing, but he also played with amazing technique, better than anything I heard Wynton do in jazz.

Wynton has some okay jazz records but overall I prefer his classical playing by far. His Baroque trumpet music album is the most impressive to me.

bluenote · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 366

AccentOnTrumpet:

I suppose my opinion on who has a better technique is a subjective one, but in terms of range and pure technique, I would say Wynton has an edge. They're both at such a high level, however, that it probably doesn't matter.

I think, at any rate, to rate one over the other based on their technique is to miss the point of what a jazz trumpeter is really all about. My favorite jazz trumpeter is Kenny Dorham, and I doubt on a purely technical level he was anywhere near the level that Wynton is. I listen to KD all the time, while I listen to Wynton next to never.

[ This Message was edited by: bluenote on 2003-08-10 20:19 ]

etownfwd · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:20 pm Post subject:

Sorry for not being able to pay attention to this thread more closely, I recently had some tiem away frm the computer. Now, PH, I agree that being compared with the likes of Dave Brubeck, et. al. is certainly not bad company in the least. But I would argue that Wynton did not want to come on the scene to be an innovator. he has maintained from the beginning that he only wants to play. He also emphatically believes that he needs to learn from the "old masters" before beginning to be able to find a way to innovate in the artform. That being said, I am not only a fan of Wynton's music. While I have been in love with his sound since I first can remember heraing him, I find inspiration from many other players. I know that I might get some flack for this, but I believe that Terell Stafford has one of the most intriguing sounds in Jazz today. His sound is Far more enlightening than Terrence Blanchard ( even though I LOVE his sound and playing ). I think that Wynton has a unique approach to writing, but I don't think that his compositional skills are better than all others, save Miles. That is a bit of an overstatement. While his music never fails to enlighten me, it doesn't inspire me. You who have differing impressions are TOTALLY supposed to have them. I am NOT attempting to flame anyone. Just take this post for what it is worth.
-efwd

mateoshaw · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:52 pm Post subject:

To answer the question quickly. Black Codes is probably the best although I really enjoy Standard Time Vol. 1 as well. I think his output later in his career seemed more quantity than quality, especially that whole " swingin into the 21st century thing ". How can someone expect to release that many albums in that short a period and expect them to all be compelling? This could of course be why he's no longer with Columbia.

While I don't necessarily think that his level of musicianship has declined, I don't hear the startling growth in playing you hear in someone like Nicholas Payton, or Roy Hargrove. Plus there are the countless other trumpet players in New York and elsewhere that are really trying new things and progressing the trumpet forward in a jazz context.

Another thing to consider is that he might actually be aware of this and decided on this path. He became such a figurehead for educating the masses about jazz that he picked a fairly accessible format... Ellington's music. I doubt highly that he would be as visible today had he chosen to continue what he was doing in the 80's. I feel on those albums he was trying to grow out of the Miles second quintet concept and Freddie Hubbard. Coming out of that is probably not as general public friendly as what he's doing now... Although we could argue all day about what's more artistically fulfilling.

Bottom line, is he super bad? Yes. Is he the best jazz trumpet player out there? I don't think so. Is Black Codes from the Underground and Standard Time Vol. 1 my favorite Wynton albums... yes.

Matt

redface · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 12:17 am Post subject:

JackD · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:15 am Post subject:

I agree with Redface - how many times do you hear Concerto for Cootie or Black Brown & Beige at a jam session? You don't. Some of Wynton's best writing has been for the LCJO, and aren't the kind of compositions where you can learn the head and the changes and join in. I don't see anyone accusing Ellington of being a bad composer on this basis (yes, other stuff of his gets played at jam sessions, but his best works (in my opinion) don't.)

In my opinion judging Wynton on the basis of how much he is innovating is like trying to judge Clifford Brown on his sax playing. I think it is clear Wynton is not trying to be at the cutting edge of jazz at the moment (who knows what he may decide to do in the future) but that does not make his music irrelevant.

In a strange way, Wynton's conservative attitude to jazz seems to be radical in it's own way. I think most people will agree that Wynton's trumpet playing is to be admired and respected, and while opinions will always differ over his music (isn't that always the case with art?) I believe that his work in music and education is important, valuable and all to often undercut by harsh criticism.

jazz_trpt · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 6:41 am Post subject:

Regarding "Concerto for Cootie"...well, this is basically "Do Nothing 'til You Hear From Me", and yes, you will hear this on small group sessions.

Ellington's and Strayhorn's music, in large part, will stand on its own away from the large ensemble. And, in fact, is sought out for small group interpretation because the COMPOSITION (the melody) is so compelling.

If you want to hear someone write like Ellington, check out Jeff Lindberg.

(BTW, I may be picking nits, but I consider the construction of the melody to be "composition", and the arranging for large ensemble to be "arranging". I think making this distinction allows to to compare apples to apples. You can be a great composer and a crappy arranger, or vice-versa, though I suspect great composers learn to be good arrangers by necessity.)
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JackD · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:18 am Post subject:

I chose a bad example there, but I think it is obvious what I am getting at - what makes Concerto for Cootie a great work is not just the melody (which you do hear, altered, that is true) but the way in which the orchestra interacts with the soloist, the harmonies and the manipulation of timbres. This is all lost when you hear Do Nothin' at a jam session.

bluenote · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 366

Well, if you're going to judge whose a better composer by the complexity of the arrangement and rhythmic complexity, Wynton would be a better composer. You can't just judge music simply based on those things, however. I think my point is still valid regarding whose compositions will stand the test of time. Wynton's small ensemble writing still does not, IMO, compare with the others that I mentioned.

I'm not trying to bash Wynton, either. He's been a great spokesperson for jazz, and was an inspiration for me when I was younger. He's also worked very hard at showing others the genius of Duke and Louis Armstrong. For the most part, however, I'm just not that impressed with his playing (from an improvisational standpoint) or writing. For big band composition, I would much rather hear someone like Toshiko Akyoshi or Maria Schneider. Heck, there's large ensemble writing by college professors such as Dominic Spera that I like better. But, if your ears are hearing something mine aren't, have a laugh on me. I doubt very much Wynton cares what I think anyway.

[ This Message was edited by: bluenote on 2003-08-11 16:33 ]

jazz_trpt · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:05 am Post subject:

etownfwd · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:51 pm Post subject:

I think that Mr. Hegelsen's view of Wynton is a perfect opinion that you can form about another performer. Jazz is, has, and most probably always will be firmly rooted in tradtions. It was tradition that kept the music "black" in its early years; it was tradition that asked music to accept improvisation into the new artform; and it was tradition that dictated that blacks and whites not play together. Ultimately, Wynton's body of work will not be judged until either his death, or his decline from the pinnacle of the artform. While the latter is HIGHLY unlikely, the former is many times more plausible. This is because the prevalent tradition in Jazz is to judge a performer's body of work in a posthumous manner, waiting until that performer has given all that he can to his art before bringing it under scrutiny. This is how the artform judged Louis Armstrong and others. While Wynton will never come close to being the jazz musician that Louis was, he will maintain a rather dominant position in the annals of Jazz for his music. Music being defined as not only his original compositions, but also his interpretations of old standards....
-efwd
p.s. - For sheer interest, my favorite Wynton composition is Pedro's Get-away. I highly recommend for everyone to hear it live sometime before you expire from the idiom...
p.s.s. - I will stop sounding so damn pompous now....

Boy meets Horn · Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:47 pm Post subject:

I have a question. Whats to say that arranging isnt a form of composition? And to go even deeper, who is to say that composition and arrangement can be so heavily intertwined that one would not be able to tell where one began and the other started?

Wynton's compostions tend to be examples of this, where composition is tightly intertwined with the arranging. If this is the case, you wont see many ppl going around playing his music. This type of composition isnt very flexible, and it doesnt lend itself very easily to other ppl casually playing them,(such as Joy Spring, Night in Tunisia, Sidewinder, etc...) But that by no means makes these types of compositions inadequate. I can say this much about Wynton's playing and composing...he has his own voice, and thats all he needs, and thats really the most we can ask from anyone.

Peace

BrassGringo · Veteran Member Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 219

This seems a little bit off topic now........weird, but my favorite wynton album is Black Codes. I would have said Herbie Hancock quartet but thats not really a wynton album
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ZionTrumpeter · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 520

The Gold Collection-Compositions with Art Blakey

These are the best years of Wynton's Life.......
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Boy meets Horn · Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:10 pm Post subject:

quote:
"The Gold Collection-Compositions with Art Blakey

These are the best years of Wynton's Life....... "

Are you serious. I hated Wynton's playing during this period, it was all show and very little music. If anything, I dig Wynton's current playing a lot more than when he was touring with Art Blakey. But, you know how it is, different strokes for different folks.
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Horatio Hornblower · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Jun 2004 Posts: 724

Wynton Marsalis' best album is the one he hasn't made yet.

Boy meets Horn · Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:13 pm Post subject:

Good Point

ZionTrumpeter · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 520

everyone is entitled to their own opinion....
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Boy meets Horn · Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject:

Understood. But sometimes i wonder what ppl are listening for. I get the feeling that ppl have the feeling that Wynton's best years were over in his twenties. It is true that he sounded very immature when he was with Art Blakey, very good, but immature, like every one at that age, and i dont think i am the only one that agrees with that. Not just me, but alot of other ppl feel that ppl listen to Wynton's music now and they really take the time to understad what he is trying to do, and it is simply genius. But hey like what you like, thats what everyone is entitled to.