Do you care about the tongue level debate?

[Crazy Finn]

Periodically, there is a "debate" of sorts that breaks out in the threads between those that advocate the teaching of tongue level and those that believe that physics proves that it does nothing.

Did this dialogue interest you?
Does it continue to?

Do you wish they'd give it a rest?

Comments...
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[etc-etc]

It can be that we mix the cause, the main effect and the side effect. We all can (hopefully) agree that the tongue arch (up) causes the oral cavity to become smaller. After that, we all go on different tangents with the interpretation.

As far as I understand, tongue arch (up) allows the oral cavity to resonate with some of the higher frequency components of the sound. It does not help with a higher fundamental component because the size of the oral cavity is too small for that frequency (compare the length of the horn divided by two, three, four etc with the size of your mouth). What we feel when such resonance occurs is a "tingling" sensation on the surface of the oral cavity (especially tongue). We interpret this as "air is fast".

For the sizzling projecting sound (a periodic series of small shock waves), have a look on the frequency spectrum of Wayne Bergeron, Allen Vizzutti etc (this analysis can be done with Audacity). In trumpet, the shock waves travel just a bit (not much!) faster than the speed of sound. Thus, for the same notes played, one would have to use a slightly smaller oral cavity (higher arch) at ff than at pp.

Could I ask for corroboration (or refutation) of this?

[Pete Anderson]

I care about it but I thought we had long ago determined the facts about it and there should be no debate... I guess it needs to keep happening

So much of trumpet pedagogy is based on false science. I think it's important that the facts about what actually physically happens when a person plays the trumpet are available. That's not to say that the "traditional" advice isn't useful, however. Even if an analogy isn't technically accurate it can still help someone get closer to where they need to be.

I grudgingly read through these threads because I find that I usually learn a thing or two or gain a new perspective even though I thought I had a good handle on it.


I guess these debates are a necessary evil.

[RandyTX]

They seem to be mainly a vehicle for frustrated keyboard warriors to vent their spleens.

They all know they're not changing anyone's mind, but they can't control themselves.

The only perceptible result is that it makes TH overall seem like a much less friendly and helpful forum.
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"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."

[Pete Anderson]

[Crazy Finn]

[LittleRusty]

The posts in this thread are very similar to the posts in the threads about censoring our dear cap'n.

I can only give the same advice that annoys me so much in those threads. Just ignore the posts if you are tired of them.

[Crazy Finn]

[RandyTX]

[Dale Proctor]

[VetPsychWars]

What I personally find tedious is when people use a metaphor to describe something (metaphors are often very useful teaching tools) and then insist that the metaphor is not a metaphor but the real thing.

I had to laugh the other day, someone contrasted "warm air" versus "cold air" when blowing into the mouthpiece. Dude, the air is the same temperature, regardless of how it feels on your arm when you blow it.

But as a teaching aid, eh, perhaps not so bad.

I personally believe in the oral cavity size theory, myself. In fact, since we're talking about resonant systems, which includes your mouth, throat, and lungs, I wonder if there's a nodal point in your mouth somewhere that you're affecting by changing that oral cavity.

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[StupidBrassObsession]

[VetPsychWars]

[etc-etc]

[etc-etc]

The difference between cold and warm air is the degree of mixing of the cold ambient air with the original warm air flow. Run a simple experiment: blow air on your hand so that it feels cold. Without changing the flow aperture, move the hand closer to the aperture. The air flow will become warmer once you are almost on the aperture.

[VetPsychWars]

[tommy t.]

[etc-etc]

The shock waves in trumpet were observed by Schlieren method.
Abstract:
"A sensitive, large-aperture schlieren optical instrument is applied to observe gas-dynamic phenomena at the exit of a trumpet. Shock waves are seen, especially for loud, high-pitched trumpet notes, and several illustrations are given. Microphone waveforms are given for representative examples. These shock waves arise from the shock-tube-like effect of the performer's intermittent breath pressure driving the cylindrical duct of the trumpet, and are the result of cumulative nonlinear acoustic propagation inside the trumpet bore. They are, however, very weak, traveling only marginally above the acoustic speed. In the 118-124 peak dB(A) range, they are near the weak limit of shock wave visibility by schlieren optics. The schlieren evidence confirms that the frequency of the emitted shock waves corresponds to the frequency of the note being played. Ancillary laminar and turbulent jet phenomena associated with the performer's breath are also visible in the images."

Thus, no part of your body or trumpet moves at a supersonic speed. It is only the air that does, and then barely above the speed of the sound.

[etc-etc]

[Dale Proctor]

Can I change my vote in the poll to #3 ?...
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