High Note/Air experiment

[trjeam]

"He took out his main tuning slide out and then he only put in the top part of it in. He then told me to hold the bottom part and to put my palm in front of it so that I could feel the amount of air coming out of the horn..

So then he blows a low C and I feel a tons of air coming out of the horn. So then I'm figuring "damn! this cat uses a lot of air, I guess the double C is going to be monstrous amount of air" so then he keeps going higher and then higher and the air kept on getting thinner and weaker. After that he eventually got to the double C and it felt like as if there was barely any air going threw the horn.."

After this experience I learned that it's not just about how much air you put threw the horn but what you do with that air. I think that it has do something with lip compression..

I'm just wondering if anybody has any comments on what happened..

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George Ayala

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[ This Message was edited by: trjeam on 2003-08-09 13:41 ]

[_Clarino]

You cannot put the same volume of air through a smaller apature. When playing Double C one must put more effort into using less air. The speed of the air increases as does the pressure of the air inside the body. But the actual volume of air put through the lips has to be smaller. I learned this from a lecture by an American trombonist by the name of Don Lucas many years ago.

Facinating experiment though.

C
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[fuzzyjon79]

I second Clarino's post!!!!
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[Derek Reaban]

George,

I find that I have written about many of the topics that you bring up on the Trumpet Herald based on similar questions that have been asked on the TPIN list. Attached are two posts that I think will help you!

TPIN Post-----------------------------

Arnold Jacobs performed a number of "tests" with his colleagues from the Chicago Symphony in the late 50's or early 60's. One of his discoveries was that flow rate for any given note on a brass instrument (at the same dynamic) is the same, regardless of the instrument being played. So, if a trombone player and a trumpet player are both playing a middle C [1st ledger line below the staff for trumpet (treble clef), 1st ledger line above the staff for trombone (bass clef)], the flow rate is THE SAME for both instruments. Same for Tuba and Horn playing the same note or any combination of brass instruments on the same notes in the same register. He also pointed out that flow rate demands decrease the higher that you play on a brass instrument. So that middle C for trumpet is a very free blowing note because it is in the HIGH flow rate end of the instrument, but for a tuba this note would have a very different feel because it is in the LOW flow rate end of the instrument. The important thing to take away from this is that as you ascend on a brass instrument, the flow rate demands decrease! You must understand this to make significant progress in developing your range!

I have done lots of research on this to really "prove" it to myself, and after experiencing it in my own playing, I know that it's true. This has been called "conversational" breathing which is the exact opposite of over-breathing or filling up completely to play every note on the horn (no matter how low or high or how short the phrase may be). Conversational simply means how much air you would take in to read this sentence. Advocates for "conversational" breathing are Emory Remington (trombone professor at Eastman for many years), Donald Reinhardt (prominent trombone and trumpet instructor), Chris Gekker (trumpet professor at the University of Maryland - formerly at Juilliard, MSM, and the American Brass Quintet), and many prominent posters on this list. Of course, YOU have to discover this for yourself before it really means anything. I'm just trying to point out something that's very important, and when you discover it you
will experience an ease in playing that is quite striking.



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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona

[ This Message was edited by: Derek Reaban on 2003-08-11 10:12 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Derek Reaban on 2003-08-11 10:19 ]

[Derek Reaban]

Continuing with the idea of “conversational breathing” this was another post from TPIN that I think would be helpful to this discussion.

The question posed was:
Is it best to take in a complete breath everytime or just take in enough for what you need to play?

I have been thinking about this concept for some time now (I have always approached playing by taking a complete breath before every phrase that I play), and I have something to offer, but I'd really like to hear from others too.

The authors that I have found who discuss "conversational" breathing consist of Emory Remington, Chris Gekker, and Donald Reinhardt. I know that there are others on this list who discuss this concept, but these are the ones that I have found stating this in print. I also think that Don Jacoby and Pops mention this concept in their writing.

Basically, when you read something aloud from a book, you take in what air you need to express the thought in a sentence or possibly up to a comma within a single sentence before taking another breath. This breathing generally does not require "conscious" thought, and you simply breathe when you need to breathe. "Conversational" breathing simply conveys the idea that you take what you need to play.

I've found that moving from the "full breath on every phrase" approach to adapting the "conversational" breathing approach requires some enablers to be in place before this change can really occur. There are really three enablers that I see for an effective change to happen: Mindset, Response, and Relaxed Delivery of the Air.

Mindset - Less air is required to play in the upper register! You have to really believe this before "conversational" breathing can become a part of your playing. I mentioned recently that Arnold Jacobs worked with his colleagues from the Chicago Symphony to show that this is a true statement. See the above message. It certainly speaks volumes when the finest players in the world demonstrate a statement like this to be true.

I haven't seen this example before related to breathing, but I was thinking this weekend (washing dishes of all things), when this came to me. Consider a simple funnel. When you turn on the water to wash out a funnel, if the water is coming out at a trickle, the water will just go straight through the funnel and into the small hole in the bottom and straight out. If you turn the water up just a little, some water will accumulate in the funnel and the small hole in the bottom will regulate the amount of water that comes out. If you turn the water up to "full blast", the water will overflow the funnel, but the amount coming out the small hole at the bottom will remain constant.

I use to feel like the overflowing funnel when I would play in the higher register! Unfortunately, there was no possibility for overflowing my excess air. It would just back up and I felt the backpressure develop. After thinking about the funnel example and the reduced flow rate requirement for air on a brass instrument in the upper register, this really makes sense.

When the flow rate requirements decrease as you ascend into the upper register, if you continue to provide the same flow rate from the low register, that air is going to be like the water being on at the "full blast" setting going into the funnel. Maybe a better way to look at it would be to place your finger partially over the small hole at the bottom of the funnel mimicking increasing pressure in the upper register on a trumpet. If the flow rate is not adjusted accordingly, the funnel will quickly overflow!

Response & Relaxed Delivery of the Air - Since less air is required to play in the upper register, the lips must learn to respond to less flow rate. The best way to do this is to play VERY SOFTLY. By starting in the low register (where pressure demands are significantly reduced), you can begin to experience increased response and at the same time a relaxed delivery of the air. By maintaining this feel as you ascend (one half step at a time), this learned response will replace the old habit of playing everything in the upper register with too much air. I have used the Clarke Technical Studies very effectively to help these two concepts take hold.

In addition to knowing that less flow rate is required when playing in the upper register, these enablers have helped me to make a difference in the way that I approach playing. I hope this example is helpful!
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[trjeam]

Thanks a lot for the excellent replies Derek. But I have one question.
Why is it "controversial breathing" if it has been proven that you use less air flow as you go up?

To me there is nothing controversial about it the prove is there...
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[_Don Herman]

More air pressure is required to play high though the volume is less. I believe controversy occurs because way too many of us (or at least I) use too little air support most of the time. So, it's easier to go overboard and use to much, then back down, than constantly starve your chops for air and beat them up (no air, no fuel, means something has to help 'em vibrate, and pressure usually does the trick -- to our detriment).

FWIW, y'all can add Jim Manley to the "just enough air" school of thought. (N.B. The following is my take on what I remember of his thoughts.) He's of the opinion that many people do use too much air, especially up high, in the misguided idea that more air will help. Actually, better support (air and chops) is what's needed, and a generally more relaxed state of being. Jim does a demo that's quite an eye-opener, playing with so little air and such big sound that it's just scary! And without tension, or at least nothing like me (and presumably most of us, since it's unlikely that, despite my fervent delusions, I'm unique).

It's all about sound, and the efficiency to make great sound. You can hear tension in your sound, and in another's sound. Lack of air causes tension. Too much air causes tension. Tension causes poorer sound. Like most things in life, ya' gotta' find your balance.

My 0.000000000001 cent - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[shofar]

Derek stated:
"...Response & Relaxed Delivery of the Air - Since less air is required to play in the upper register, the lips must learn to respond to less flow rate. The best way to do this is to play VERY SOFTLY. By starting in the low register (where pressure demands are significantly reduced), you can begin to experience increased response and at the same time a relaxed delivery of the air. By maintaining this feel as you ascend (one half step at a time), this learned response will replace the old habit of playing everything in the upper register with too much air. I have used the Clarke Technical Studies very effectively to help these two concepts take hold..."

This is so true. It is so difficult to play softly, I believe it develops your embrochure stronger and more focused. There is also another part of this that is so important...I think Pops (if I remember correctly...getting old...LOL) also mentions this, that most of us playing trumpet in particular are just way to impatient. We want the upper register now, we can't seem to wait. But as Derek has stated, take it half steps at a time and develop your upper resister so there is consistency, do not try to have it all at once. I know several trumpet players, some I work with, others I have heard, that play so easily in the upper redister, seemingly soft, but with such a huge sound (and it is ususally so loud). It seems the easier (more relaxed) I play, big band, quintet, etc., the better I sound and feel. And stamina is so much better as well.

Great post Derek.

Rog

[WaxHaX0rS]

I believe he said conversational, not controversial, lol. Did you actually read the post?

[_Don Herman]

Actually, I read trjeam's post last, so had the word stuck in my head, I guess... (At least, now I have a scapegoat -- sorry, George! ) Regardless, the "less air as you ascend" idea has generated controversy in the past, so I reckon I was pre-disposed.

One more word about "conversational" breathing: phrasing. Conversation becomes awkward if you're breathing in the middle of a sentence. Ditto interrupting the middle of a musical phrase. And, if you take in waaay too much air, you'll be rushing through a sentence and looking/sounding funny; can be true in playing as well. I do maintain that most (many? don't have statistics for this) of us take in too little air rather than too much. "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" as Grandmother used to say.

(More than) enough from me - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[Dave Converse]

Excellent posts Derek and Don. How does this concept relate to the "positive air" - "negative air" issue? I mean, the reason some of us use the full breath is so the act of exhaling becomes merely relaxation of the abdominal muscles (positive air) as opposed to tensing the abdomen to squeeze out air (negative air). Can this breathing concept be controlled enough so as to avoid over-blowing the upper register? Dave

[trickg]

Clarino - - "The speed of the air increases as does the pressure of the air inside the body. But the actual volume of air put through the lips has to be smaller. "

I would put money on it that the air speed is in fact slower, not faster. What is faster is the vibration of the column of air. Because the vibrations have to become faster/shorter, the air speed actually slows. Trjeam, did John Blount show you this? Scotty Holbert showed me much the same experiement, only he didn't do it with the leadpipe and tuning slide, he just did it with a mouthpiece. Same result. But, this experiment contradicts the whole "faster air, higher range" theory.
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[trjeam]

[Derek Reaban]

Dave,

In the Emory Remington book (a trombone method by Donald Hunsberger), Remington talks about his time as an instructor at Interlochen Arts Academy. He mentions that his studio was across from the vocal coach’s studio. This vocal coach would have students forcefully pronounce a single short word with the air in their lungs (no breath was allowed before this word) to demonstrate to them that they could generate this dynamic easily with the air that was already in the lungs. This would free them from the idea that a full breath of air was required to sing a short phrase at a forte dynamic.

So, as brass players the concept is exactly the same. Any note (high or low) at any dynamic on the horn should be achievable with a great sound with only the air in the lungs (without taking a breath). If a full breath is required to play a VERY short passage in the upper register, this should be an indicator that too much air is being used (which introduces tension into the player's breathing approach).

Certainly if you have a long phrase, you will want to take enough air to stay above the zero pressure line (i.e. on “positive air”). But the point of Remington’s idea about “conversational” air is that you take just what you need to play a particular phrase (no more and no less). In this way, the player greatly reduces the possibility of allowing tension to creep into their playing.

As far as the difference between “positive air” and “negative air” I think I look at it a little differently than you do. I also like to “let” the air out most of the time (it’s a great feeling to ride on the airstream). As I understand it, the act of blowing and pushing uses exactly the same muscles. The only difference that I attach to these terms is that blowing the air out occurs above the zero pressure line (positive air), and pushing occurs below the zero pressure line (negative air). Blowing the air out is certainly possible on positive air and imparts energy to the phrase (energetic air). Many authors discuss this (Arnold Jacobs, John Hagstrom, Bob Findley, Don Jacoby), and the finest players certainly “blow” the air to energize their phrases (you can observe this when Mr. Herseth plays).

So, combining these ideas really makes sense. Take in as much air as needed to play the phrase (but no more), which leads to a reduction of tension in your playing. Play the phrase on positive, energetic air. Then, breathe just before you dip below the zero pressure line (i.e. into negative air) to avoid introducing tension into your playing. When playing in the upper register, you have to understand that much less air is required to sustain a vibration. If you are always taking a very full breath when playing in this range, tension will certainly begin to develop, because you just don't need all that air to play in that register (the whole point of this topic).

I’m here to learn as well, so I’ll be looking forward to read about how others approach the concept of “conversational” breathing.

Great topic!
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[Dave Converse]

Thanks Derek..............I think I get it now. Being a comeback player after TOO long away from playing, I'm finding myself working with concepts that never came up before. I have noticed that when I don't use the full breath , my range and endurance suffer (we all know how those two things seem tied together). Maybe it.s just a matter of dialing in what you describe about taking in just enough POSITIVE air to achieve conversational breathing. Gonna work on this with the idea of finding a good balance. Thanks agsin for taking the time to write such a good, detailed description. Dave

[John Mohan]

Lip Compression? Lip Compression!?!?!

Have you forgotten everything I thought I taught you?!

It's the arching of the tongue that both speeds up the air and diminishes its volume (quantity).

Analogy:

First off note that in the following, volume refers to quantity, not sound-volume.

LOW NOTE: A garden hose. With no nozzle, it produces lots of volume with no power. It'll fill a bucket quickly, but if you hold it up it'll only go a few feet. This is a low note on a trumpet. Tongue flat (no nozzle), lots of air coming out the leadpipe, or tuning slide or bell if the horn is all in one piece (bucket fills fast).

HIGH NOTE: A garden hose with a nozzle. It produces little volume but lots of power. It takes much longer to fill the bucket, but'll shoot all the way across the yard.

Extreme high note: A Professional Water Pic that a dentist uses to clean your teeth. Almost no quantity but tons of power. Takes forever to fill a bucket, but that thin stream will rip you gums if you're dentist isn't careful.

Another way to note how little air (though lots of air POWER) is used on high notes is to realize that you can only hold a loud Low C for a fraction of the time you can hold a High C before running out of air.

Read "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing" (again). In my absence, you've been tempted by the Dark Side of theories and all. Don't let this happen again George.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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[dbacon]

I would only differ with John on how the tongue gets it's orders to work the most efficiently. Through your concept of sound and how you dial up what you want to play, the tongue does it's job naturally without concious direction. How it is presented in your computer, the subconcious that control those fine nerves, that's the best control point. Conciously thinking about the tongue takes your attention away from what you really need to focus on, and that's sound. Brighter, louder, softer, darker, warmer, more projection, whatever. Keep your mind on exactly what you want and your body will form up to comply. Form follows function.

[Emb_Enh]

The successful equation is = aperture/size, and or lip/ tension, air speed, internal compression and tongue level/oral cavity.


It is possible to play high in many different ways, not all good, what I am talking about here is the efficiency or effectiveness of some methods real or perceived. Controlling and changing pitch is a matter of co-ordinating aperture/size, and or lip/ tension, air speed, internal compression and tongue level/oral cavity.

These variables will be used in differing combinations to differing degrees by players, with differing lip tissue. It is up to you to find what best works for you and your set up, it's no good asking somebody else what they do, they have'nt got your physiology.

Emphasising one variable more than another requires adjustment to the co-
-ordination of ALL the other variables. In some, increased air speed will indeed necessitate a degree of greater lip tension depending on how close their aperture is to start. Increasing lip tension, will in turn, make it necessary to employ greater air speed to a degree.

However it is the players choice, which, of all the variables is the easiest to make their POWERBASE for increased range - Abs or Face?
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[_Clarino]

I always understood the "powerbase" for one's notes to be the diaphragm.


As for the air speed issue, I tend to agree with John Mohan. I think you would find that the air speed would NEED to increase the higher you play in order to set (and keep) the lips vibrating. This would prove difficult to measure. The volume of air, as has been stated, is lower (in the extreme register considerably). Therefore in order to measure the speed of the aid coming through the instrument you would need extremely sensetive equipment. Also one would need a device for measuring the volume in decibels in order to keep the variables limited. I doubt anyone has put this much effort into an experiment to work out which method is correct. People just teach from their experience.
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[Trptbenge]

Okay guys! I want to make sure I understand this so I can apply it in practice. Please help me if I make a wrong interpetation here.

1. To play higher you are looking at faster air to vibrate the lips faster - not more air. So, blowing harder until your eyes bulge won't help you play higher.

2. Take enough air and not over-fill your lungs. It helps you play more relaxed.

3. To play higher your aperture will be smaller and you need good support from your facial muscles as well as the air stream. Lip compression.

5. The tongue can help but needs to work naturally & not forced.

Does this seem to capture the basic concepts that most players agree on?

Thanks!

Mike

[ This Message was edited by: Trptbenge on 2003-08-16 07:51 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Trptbenge on 2003-08-16 07:52 ]