Hummel ... E Flat or E?

johntpt · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:32 am Post subject:

The Schilke G1L4 is a 4 valve instrument.

big brian · Veteran Member Joined: 06 Nov 2001 Posts: 440

softcase · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:13 pm Post subject:

trumpetchops · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644

I have both recordings e and e flat

smithwatkinsguy · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:57 pm Post subject:

From my understanding and the many people I have talked to (and a few professors) say that this concerto was originally in E. I don't know why...I can't really explain it but this is what I know to be true. I've always played it in Eb on a Bb trumpet. One of these days I'll order a Smith and Watkins Eb trumpet

...but until I get my chops a little stronger, I'll stick to Bb and C. And Yamaha makes an Eb/E trumpet for those who don't know!
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trombapaul2 · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:32 pm Post subject:

Armando Ghitalla preferred performing the concerto in E on a C trumpet.
Also, the Schilke G1L-4 is a G/F trumpet, not an E trumpet. I believe you can
special order an E3L-4 with an E bell but I'm not certain of that.

Paul
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_Clarino · Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:17 am Post subject:

The fingering and harmonic placement is easier if you use the E/Eb. That's what I would do.

I was once told that NO-ONE ever plays the Haydn on a Bb. The sound is not Classical enough.

Any thoughts?
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johntpt · Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:04 am Post subject:

Schilke's G1L and G1L4 are G/F trumpets for which Schilke will also make a bell in E natural. I have a G1L4 in all 3 keys.

They don't make an E bell for their Eb trumpets.

johntpt · Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:07 am Post subject:

Phil Smith plays the Haydn on Bb and sounds pretty darn good.

Most trumpet auditions in Germany require the Haydn on a Bb rotary trumpet. Sometimes this is requested in the USA as well - isn't that what the Met asked for this year?

robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

The notes on Rheinhold Friedrich's recording (on the Capriccio label) say that he performs Hummel in E on a Trumpet in B-natural! Sounds like it was a custom job, shortening each slide proportionally from a Bb. Weird, huh? This would certainly take care of the low note issue if one didn't have pedals that sound as good as Marsalis!

PS. the notes are by Edward Tarr, so I assume he wasn't joking.

JPrindle · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:37 pm Post subject:

I've played both with my community orchestra, Hummel in 97 and Haydn in 99.

Played the Hummel on C (ala Ghitalla) and that worked pretty well. The key of E is actually one of the easier keys to play (you just sort of dance around your second valve and there are some nifty tricks for some of the technical parts).

Played the Haydn on Bb, which IMHO is more appropriate for a piece originally written for an instrument actually the length of an alto trumpet. Love the sound of the recording from the concert, particularly the richness of the sound in the 2nd movement. No problem playing lightly enough, even on a NY Bach large bore, with a Monette B12 mp. Saw Herseth play it on Bb with a local group in the late 80's (he also played Trumpeter's Lullaby as an encore).

I purchased and own the orchestra sets for both--Tarr's Universal Edition for the Hummel and Kalmus for the Haydn. I agree that E is an easier key for the orch, and the Hummel (again IMHO) is harder for strings than the Haydn. The Tarr edition of Hummel has a lot of scholarly info with it. You can get the same info with the piano and trumpet UE version from RL King.

My understanding as to why they are in different keys is that Weidinger continued to experiment with having more effective models built and making alterations in them himself. The Hummel was written when they were considering hiring to replace Haydn at Esterhazy (sp?). He was hired for the job soon after, but didn't last long because he missed being near the center of action in Vienna.

Fortunately for us, Weidinger refused to share the technology of the keyed bugles with others. Otherwise, we all might be playing keyed trumpets instead of valved ones!

maccluer · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:00 pm Post subject:

Another thing to consider is that pitch standards have risen considerably over the last 200 years or so. If you play it in Eb now, it will probably sound about the same as E did when it was first performed.

LaserBoy · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:57 pm Post subject:

Hmm, very interesting. I have never laid eyes on an E part, only Eb (and concert
Eb transcribed for Bb trumpet). Now this gives me some insight about the choice
of key in the middle movement -- 7 flats in the piano reduction. I used to think that
was an unusual key for a composer of that time period. Just taking it down a
half step....

Speaking of E trumpet-- back in my college days I showed up for orchestra rehearsal and was handed an E trumpet part (Brahms symphony). I had only a Bb in
those days, and that transposition was not one I had practiced.

... I still get nightmares about that.

LaserBoy
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fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:05 pm Post subject:

Yea, I went to a symphony gig one time and was handed Dvorak's (sp?) New World Symphony written for E trumpet. It wasn't pleasant reading everything up an augmented 4th!!!!!!!
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rudas1 · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:37 pm Post subject:

Lets not forget that Ghitalla's premiere recording of the Hummel Concerto (yes, in E for sure) was on the C trumpet, as well. There was some confusion about that. He plays spectacular lip trills, esp. in the 2nd movement. Its Ghitalla at his very best.

Regards-rudas

JPrindle · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:26 am Post subject:

At the risk of being repetitive, E is one of the easier keys on a C trumpet. If you play the 4th space E "1+2" (as is common on C trumpet to keep that note from being too flat), every note involves use of the 2nd valve,

There's one spot in the 1st movement where you can really get the speed up on a mordent passage by using the index finger of your left hand to hold down the middle valve while you do the fast stuff with your right hand. It's tricky at first, but a neat effect (which my college trumpet teacher told me Ghitalla used in that recording). Also in a series of trills in the last movement.

Key of E also makes some lip trills possible in the Hummel when you play it on C (again, like Ghitalla).

BTW, there are a lot of orch. pieces for trumpet in E, the most common one being the overture to William Tell. Much harder to play in the key of F# on a Bb than in the key of E on a C (hope you can follow this alphabet soup). Anyone serious about orch. playing must own a C, and be proficient at transposing, which is easier (at least, for most people I know) on a C trumpet.

_Clarino · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:21 am Post subject:

"Another thing to consider is that pitch standards have risen considerably over the last 200 years or so. If you play it in Eb now, it will probably sound about the same as E did when it was first performed."

Actually, concert pitch has not exactly risen, rather it has been unified. pitches in the Baroque period ranged from A=420 Hz to A=480 Hz. So it would be more accurate to say that pithces have fallen slightly. Even so, a 20 Hz change in the frequency of a note would not ammount to a semi-tone transposition.
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AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

Someone's probably already mentioned this, but...

The Hummel was written originally in E for orchestra, then someone transposed it to Eb for band. Armando Ghitalla has a famous recording of the piece in E. I've only heard Wynton play the band version.