Getting that symphonic tone

[trumpetjunkie]

I just got back from 3 weeks of music school. I played in a band several times a week, and there was a big emphasis placed on getting a symphonic tone. Several ideas were presented.

1. Use warm air from your stomach rather than cold air from your lungs.

2. Drop your jaw.

Number 1 I understand. Number two I disagree with because that affects my range, and is exactly the opposite of the embouchure I'm learning. (B.E.) A couple questions.

1.Are them two suggestions legitimate?
2.Mouthpeice?
3.Can you get the symphonic tone with BE?
4.Any other suggestions on how to get that symphonic tone?
5.Do I HAVE to learn how to play with that symphonic tone?

[LeeC]

This may not answer your question. I've always been curious about those symphony cats who demand the full symphonic sound. Usually they try to tell us to buy a Bach Strad and a use larger mouthpiece. The Strad I agree with. It does sound more Classical, but a larger piece?

Aren't these symphony dudes always playing the higher pitched horns like the C trumpet?? And doesn't a higher pitched trumpet sound brighter? So if you're trying for a brighter tone by playing a brighter sounding horn why blow the larger piece which can deaden the sound on SOME players?

Yes, the symphonic sound with higher pitched horns may be the oxymoron of the trumpet biz.

[O-Dawgg]

Hey, #2 contributes to #1. Think of fogging a mirror with your breath. Try singing with an opera like tone, opening your throat to get that projection. Good luck!

[Vessehune]

Doesn't all air come from your lungs? They need to work on that wording!!
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---Brian Vessey---
Calicchio 1s-7 Ultra; ML Bore
Mouthpiece = ?????

[thelurker]

To give you some direction with this…

1. Yes they are very legitimate suggestions
2. Yes but with out the concepts behind it a mouthpiece or horn will do little for you, and as for C turmpet yes it does help but you can sound just as dark on that as B flat.
3. BE? Not sure I don’t know the ins and outs of that....I don’t really think in those terms….just think firm corners…..good air support let the horn sing( that might be BE I am not sure)
4. Think clear sound not necessarily dark, relaxed as possible at all times ( no tension anywhere even in the gut)…don’t force the air, in fact don’t force anything.
5. Yes and no, depends on your goals and what you want to do with trumpet.


Listen as much as possible to the great players….Bernie , Bud, Phil Smith…just be aware that “symphonic” tone has changed greatly over the years…for my money Jim Thompson is someone I enjoy hearing for sound.

If you have any question or need more clarification pm me…

Also check out the Chicago forum here…

[Nonsense Eliminator]

Do you have to learn to play with a symphonic tone? If you want to play in a symphony, yes. Otherwise, no.

Certainly, using a "symphonic" mouthpiece will help you achieve a symphonic sound, if you can handle the size. Otherwise it will help you get tired and sound dull. However, it's pretty difficult to produce a symphonic sound on a Jet-Tone, just as it is difficult to produce a lead sound on a 1C.

Otherwise, if you want to develop a symphonic tone, or any kind of tone, the way to do that is to spend a lot of time listening to players with great sounds and a lot of time playing lyrical things focussing on copying that sound. I wouldn't worry about how to accomplish it, other than perhaps visualizing a very open "AH" or "OH" vowel when you play. I recommend that you not worry about whether or not you're breaking the rules of whatever embouchure you're trying to learn. If the embouchure doesn't allow you to play with the sound you want, what good is it?

[_swthiel]

I can't speak to the BE questions, or to what kind of sound you need. In fact, I'm not an expert on anything but my own experience. The comments about listening are right on target -- both listening to others (sound models) and to yourself. My instructor really opened my ears to what I could sound like ... I'm still not sure how he did that, I guess that's why he's on the conservatory faculty and I'm an engineer! My point is, I found a key element in my sound to listen for that really marks the full, open sound I'm looking for and I can get it reproducibly if I listen. (I suppose the fact that I play a Bach 37ML with a Bach 1 1/2 C mouthpiece gets me part of the way to a symphonic sound, although I can also get the jazz sound I'm looking for with that setup.)

Nobody will mistake me for Phil Smith, but I'm making progress. Heck, right now I'd settle for sounding like Maurice Andre!

Hope this helps,

Steve
_________________
Steve Thiel

Matthew 25:31-46

[pedaltonekid]

I like to think of all trumpet sound as having a "dark/symphonic" component and a brilliant/bright component. Once you get comfortable with this concept it becomes easier to adjust the components to achieve the sound that you are trying to produce.

I personally find it a little easier, especially in the lower register, to open the jaw a little bit to get a more resonant sound. I also can more easily achieve a symphonic sound with a Schilke 17D4 than with my 17D4rim, A cup, B Backbore -- but I can get essentially the same sound with either mouthpiece. This holds true for both brilliant sounds and symphonic sounding tones.
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Best Regards, Play Well!!

[schlotsky]

As one that strugeled with this issue I got a unusual response.

I remeber throughout high school my band directors raged about my sound..... too bright, too wide, etc......

Then came college..... I had my first lesson. My proffesor had me play something, his reply "Ah, you didn't listen to your band director did you?"..... I said "yep", he replied "Good, you don't sound like a cornet player, you kind of sound like Timothy Morrison".

His point... Most band directors want a dark tubby sound..... Thats a sound of a cornet.

My advice is this.... go with a "da or do" tounge, to me a "T" toung sounds brighter.... I learned both and just swap it when ever the music dictates. Also back off on the volume, and even the vibroto. Also play the way you think it should sound till the director tells you other wise.

Shannon Jeffreys

Opps... I wrote K insteed of T....

[ This Message was edited by: schlotsky on 2003-08-17 11:47 ]

[redface]

[monke]

First of all, you have to had an idea about your sound. Then try to get this sound every time you practise. A good equipment helps you to get this sound but it is not the epuipment that makes the sound it is you. Very good trumpeters produce their sound on each teumpet they play. May teacher, who was principal trumpet of the Berlin Philharmonic, could produce his huge dark sound also on a cheap Yamaha trumpet.

Olaf

[Jarrett Ellis]

Ahhh screw the symphonic tone... get a Yamaha 6310Z and a Bobby Shew 1 ... you'll be all symphonic-like in no time... no really, I think the "symphonic tone" direction is the wrong way to think... just keep practicing and once you get good enough to be playing some serious symphonic stuff, it'll be easy to turn the "symphonic tone" on and off.. it's something that comes with time.
-Jarrett
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Eclipse Medium Bell Scratch Gold
Bach 37H Gold Plate
Bach 3c

[romey1]

All my favorite players have a few things in common:

1. Brilliant sound - balance of highs and lows in the sound.
2. Full sound
3. Projecting sound - sound projects all the way to the back of the hall from ppp to FFF.

What's going on physically?

1. Stable chops/firm corners
2. Healthy, IMMEDIATE airstream
3. Forward, arched tongue
4. Efficient use of pressure - just the right amount.

Bud Herseth played on a 7B before his car accident.

Have a clear concept in your head of what you want to sound like, then practice and find equipment that helps you accomplish this goal.

romey

P.S. Two priceless learning tools are the Phil Smith Orchestral Excerpt CD, as well as the Concert Studies - Etudes written by various composers with a CD of Phil playing them on his Bb trumpet.

[ This Message was edited by: romey1 on 2003-08-17 08:06 ]

[plp]

. Use warm air from your stomach rather than cold air from your lungs.

2. Drop your jaw.

I heard this constantly in high school. Our director was unabashedly a symphonic developer for cornet sound, which is why we all played cornets. Any note above third ledger E was verbotten, as it was not a 'true' tone, and I never heard her say the word 'trumpet' that wasn't preceded by 'tinny'. Mendez and Andre were gods, and the worst butt chewing I ever got from her was for sneaking a chart of 'Conquistador' into our pep band list and performing it at a pep rally.

Was she wrong for stressing this approach at the expense of range development? Not on your life. She had 33 years of consecutive superior ratings at State contest to prove her approach worked for the type of music we performed. It is all about the finished product. She understood that you could not develop range in a high school player without sacrificing tonal quality. I know this statement can be argued, and everyone could cite examples of players that could do both. In the late 1970's this was the accepted wisdom.Every private teacher I had in high school and college told me the same thing, some players are not meant to have an extended range, and none of the four of them wanted to do anything to change my tone. I heard the same thing over and over. You are where so many legit players want to be, why mess with it?

My approach today is a little different. I am working on BE on trumpet, and have recently changed to a Stork mouthpiece with a shallower cup and smaller rim to help with range AND flexibility. When I want that dark sound, I go back to my Victor cornet with a Bach 5A. I am working from two directions to get to a central point, i.e. playing two separate equipment setups that make it easier to get the result I am after.

After the diatribe, here is the response to your question. If you want a dark, symphonic sound, play a cornet with a large deep mouthpiece. If you want a brighter trumpet sound and range, use the apropriate equipment to get the job done. As you mature as a player, and the ear is trained to get the body to produce the effect you desire at that moment, you will be able to do it regardless of equipment.

Never understood why the legit players don't change en masse to cornets, why work so hard to make a Bach sound like a cornet?

[Ricetrpt]

I think there is a huge misconception that equates symphonic to dark tone. Bud Herseth did not play with a particularly dark tone. Niether did Vacchiano, Ghitalla, Voison, Adelstein, or Gil Johnson. These magnificent players set the path for the major orchestral trumpet players of today. When I think of "symphonic tone", I do not relate it to concert band at all, and therefore not to a cornet sound (unless playing some french music), or a particularly dark sound.

The replies that suggest listening to lots of music are right on the money. This is the best way to get the right sound concept. However, listening alone will not make you sound like Phil Smith, or we would all sound like Phil Smith. What you will hear when you listen to Smith, Mike Sax, Bob Sullivan, Bud Herseth, or Glen Fishtall (sp?), is that they are extremely effecient players. They use huge amounts of air behind small amounts of tension in their bodies and in their embouchures. This gives them a vibrant, clear tone, and the ability to play forever.

Try not to think of "dark" as the overall principle of your tone. As trumpet players, we must be able to change our colors depending on the situation. Find sounds that you like, and try to replicate their relaxed sound. By combining the different things you like from lots of different sounds, you begin to shape your own sound.

Good luck.

[schlotsky]

[Still Trying]

I know. I'm old. And I think old. But I can't help but remember that it wasn't so many years ago that trumpet players just played everything on one horn/mouthpiece set up. When I was in high school, I played in our school symphony orchestra, marching band, concert band, and jazz band. The orchestra director played classical violin and jazz saxophone. The concert band director was a cornet player and also led the marching band. My junior high band director was classically trained in voice and played principle French horn in the local symphony. None of them were "slouchy" musicians or directors.

I played everything on an Olds Recording Bb trumpet and at that time 7C Bach. I never thought in terms of, "I'm playing symphony music at the moment, so I have to remember to get a symphonic sound. Well, now I'm playing a Woody Herman arrangement in jazz band, so I have to concentrate on my jazz sound". Getting the right sound for the style of music being played ought to be as natural as breathing. You shouldn't have to think too much about it. Jazz music doesn't sound like jazz if you play it like it was legit. And symphony music doesn't sound symphonic, if you play it in a jazz style. Playing the music before you with the correct style should be automatic. And playing with the correct sound should be automatic-not something to stress over.

BUT a player HAS to have a clear concept of what the correct style and tone should be. And for that there is NO substitute for listening hours and hours and hours to recordings of the types of music you desire to play or to the types of music you are required to play. In that I was fortunate. My Dad led his own 12 piece dance band throughout half of the thirties and all the forties. He switched it to a five piece combo some time in the early fifties. But when I was 2 or 3 years old, I used to go to sleep at night listening to a 12 piece dance band rehearsing in our living room a couple times a week. My Mom was a classically trained pianist, and loved classical music of all kinds. She LOVED Rafael Mendez and Spanish Bull Fight music.

We always had the record player on at our house. I grew up listening to every song Glenn Miller ever recorded, Benny Goodman, Tommy Dorsey, and a host of other. We listend to Dixie Land. We listened to march music. We listened to Polka bands. We listened to German Ump Pah Pah bands. We watched Lawrence Welk on TV. We listened to Louis Armstrong. We listened to symphanies. We listened to Mario Lanza. We listened to the Kingston Trio and Peter,Paul, and Mary. We listend to Doc Severenson. In short we listened to just about every kind of music we could find.

The experience was valuable in that it taught me what different styles of music were supposed to sound like and how they were to be styled. If you have a clear idea what your sound and style should be for a particular type of music, you just do it. I never thought one time about what I would have to do to change my tone and style from Dixie land to symphonic. I just did it. So did everybody else I played with. I wasn't unique. And we all did it with a single horn and a single mouthpiece. In college I played all these same kinds of music with the Olds Recording and a 1 1/2 C Bach.

The key is having a clear idea of how you want to sound and just sounding that way. But you also ought to have a clear idea of how YOU want to sound. What's your unique, signature sound? Because when you are practicing, you should be listening to EVERY note you play to ensure that each single note, no matter how low or how high, no matter how long or how short, is as beautiful as you are capable of making it. Make each note a solo. Develop YOUR tone so that no matter if you're playing jazz or symphony, and varying the tone color and style to fit the occasion, the people hearing you will say, "Wow!! What a beautiful tone".



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S. T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

[ This Message was edited by: Still Trying on 2003-08-17 15:44 ]

[Clarion Wind]

You will never get a good symphonic classical sound trying to physically contort your body one way or another. The only way is to continually listen to people you want to sound like, and then pick up the horn and match their tone. Using good basic principals can help and are in fact necessary, like big, relaxed breaths, a relaxed body, and good air flow, but in the end, sound is in the realm of sound.

[DaveH]

Hi, Still Trying,

I can relate to much of your post above. (I wonder how close we are to being of similar ages - I was born in 1951...).

Anyway, I also grew up in a home where there was almost always some kind of music playing or being played. With my father being a high school band director and making his living from being involved in music, I heard/listened to a lot of things on the "home entertainment system." Yes, this was a TV, record player, and AM/FM radio all in one piece of furniture.

And back then, I really don't remember as much emphasis on the equipment because I just don't think there was as much equipment around. Especially in terms of what was accessible to the average high school player or non-professional.

And there was tone, tone tone... It was good or bad tone - not so much in terms of jazz tone or classical tone or dark tone or whatever - it was just good tone. I'm sure these ideas aren't new, but I know they were unknown to me until more recently...

Anyway, an interesting post...reminiscient of my younger days...

DaveH

[Still Trying]

Dave,

I was born a few years before you-back in the mid-forties. Like I said, I'm OLD.
_________________
S. T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?