Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:53 am Post subject: Easy way to learn Bebop?
Ok lets be honest here. Dexterity isn't my best subject. It never was even when I was a kid.
So plan A.
Do what you find hard. Bebop is high dexterity. Learn that, I'll sound cool and I'll get my dexterity up right?
Problem. Everywhere I read it says Bebop is easy. Lies! I have bought loads of books about the subject and they all teach you the use of the bebop scales, give you riffs to play etcetera, but none explain how to chain these together. they say, this is a turn-around. They don't show how to use it. They also talk as if you completely understand musical nomenclenture.(I do but it takes a while for me to figure it out on my fingers).
I'm kind of starting to hear (by listening to the greats) what I should be doing but without a more comprehensive understanding I get lost.
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 942 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:15 am Post subject:
Hi, start transcribing, Clifford Brown, Dizzy, Clark Terry, Kenny D., ect.
Note how they link the changes. Clifford is a master at it. Also, check the Boptism stuff from Rich Willey, and check out "Pops". _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
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Hi, start transcribing, Clifford Brown, Dizzy, Clark Terry, Kenny D., ect.
Note how they link the changes. Clifford is a master at it. Also, check the Boptism stuff from Rich Willey, and check out "Pops".
Pops is that George Murphey? _________________ Chris.
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Olds Recording '68:Olds Mendez '52:Olds Mendez Cornet '52:Getzen Severinsen 74:Rudy MÜck 5M '58:Getzen Super Deluxe '58:Conn Wonder Cornet '14
Joined: 29 Dec 2005 Posts: 526 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:58 am Post subject:
Never stop listening and transcribing regardless of how great you feel you can improvise. However, I have a book that's been helping students called Targeting: Improvisation With Purpose. Check it out by going to my website in my signature. I also have improvisation tips on my website that might be beneficial for you as well.
Never stop listening and transcribing regardless of how great you feel you can improvise.
Let me know if you have any questions!
Jason
I can improvise a bit, but I frequently make mistakes or, as Miles would say "Bad Choices". England at that time was very much Brass Bands and classical orientated. I didn't have a great music teacher at school and because I was interested in Jazz rather than classical, I was the outcast.
I don't transcribe at all. Like I said I'm not that good at music theory so the syncopated rhythms used in jazz wouldn't get correctly transcribed by my anyway. I do know the theory of 4 part harmony composition though. _________________ Chris.
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Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:12 am Post subject:
I've systematically worked at bebop for decades and I'm not very good at it by my standards. Other people that are going through the same process think that I'm doing OK but I feel like it is fake rather than genuine. (Those of you who feel genuine will immediately know what I mean.)
Here is my single, number 1 conclusion that rules over and trumps everything else in my experience:
Play be-bop with others who know how. That's it. I think that is the only way -- you've got to have an interactive group that you respond to and that in turn responds to you. Bebop is not a set of changes, it is a way of interacting and responding as a group. The problem with a play-along cd is that it doesn't respond to you. Practicing by yourself is ever less helpful because you are not reacting to anything except yourself.
This is why the college jazz programs have a bunch of different bands at different levels -- it's so you can play with others without being self-concious or embarrased. Then when you begin to get it, you move up to a higher level group.
A player who isn't in school can find the same kind of experience in the jazz camp programs. I have not been to one but a lot of people have posted here about what an eye opener the experience can be.
A garage band of your friends who share your desire to learn to bebop can do the same thing if everybody shares the same level of dedication. (Yeah, I know, I don't have any friends like that either.) If you go that route you need at least one mentor in the group who understands where you all are and where you need to go.
As for me, and for where you may realistically find yourself, I mainly study the theories, copy the solos I like, practice my scales and, while I don't become a beboper, I do understand and appreciate the titans more and more.
And that is really pretty worthwhile in and of itself.
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money.
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:34 am Post subject:
It's in the ears and the mind's eye. In my experience, guys who do it well put in the time early on and don't work on it much anymore. They just play a lot and work on their technique because their ears are already attuned to the style. I'm a late bloomer to it and made it my goal to sit in the jazz chair and not embarass myself. Let's just say we don't always reach our goals, so I stopped making goals.
You've really got to just sit and listen to it. Of course, transcriptions are a good thing, but hearing THIS and playing THAT is really the thing. I remember as a lad listening to Steely Dan's The Fez, and learning Larry Carlton's guitar solo so well I could whistle the damn thing in my sleep... still can. Same with bebop. Eventually you get a picture, a visual of where things go in a solo, and when your hearing matches what you see, it's great. When I'm not hearing it, I grab the 3rd book!
Some of the more modern players definitely have been influenced by Dizzy. Arturo and Faddis to name only two. Diz set the bar for bebop trumpet playing as did others in his era. His ideas and speed, not to mention range and style, also serve as sort of the ideal or at least a very good example.
Joined: 29 Dec 2005 Posts: 526 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:49 am Post subject:
Everyone goes through varying periods of trial and error until they find what works for them. Experiment in the practice room. Try improvising over a set of changes with no accompaniment. Do the lines sound like you want them? If not, then go back and try it again. Some theory will help you make those linear connections, but Tommy and Ed are spot on-you have to play with others.
Hi, start transcribing, Clifford Brown, Dizzy, Clark Terry, Kenny D., ect.
Note how they link the changes. Clifford is a master at it. Also, check the Boptism stuff from Rich Willey, and check out "Pops".
Pops is that George Murphey?
No, Clint "Pops" McLaughlin and he is under "Pops" on here so PM him. _________________ "Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending." - Maria Robinson
Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 3131 Location: West Virginia
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:52 am Post subject:
When I think of "Pops", I am thinking Louis Armstrong! _________________ Freelance Performer/Teacher WV, PA, MD, and OH http://www.neil-king.com
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you need to learn the voice leading that bebop employs. This is the connecting fiber that allows the phrase "let the melody (either the actual melody or the guide tones) be your guide."
Bert Ligon's book "connecting chords with linear..." great book that shows how/what/why of patterns that allow you to connect through say a "turn-around" and "major and minor ii-V language."
The book also goes the next step by examining the variety of ways that the great players "ornament" those "outlines" that connect chords.
It is a way to get inside the changes in a very concrete way, that also will start the ear training process so you hear those goal notes which are the 3rds and 7ths (also call guide tones).
This is an academic approach to start training your ears to gravitate toward those chord tones that allow you to sound convincingly like you know the changes.
Speed comes when you hear better what you want to do. If you are playing catch up (thinking a lot) then you will never experience the bliss of really improvising. It is the same experience I have trying to play at 300. I just don't hear the changes that fast yet. Or only on certain tunes (blues, rhythm changes, etc.) because I have spent so much time working on those changes.
Transcribing: forget writing it down if that is the deterrent. Just play along with the player on the recording note for note on a tune that you know the changes so when you come across ideas that you like, you can then see what those pitches over those chords are, so you can start figuring out the relationships of getting that sound/idea in other keys. Ears are key.
I agree. The best thing is to listen and play along. Then learn the relation of the notes to the chords, etc. But be careful not to over analyze or over think all of it. Remember Diz and many others from his era didn't even read music or didn't have any formal training. They didn't "learn" theory or style, they created it. Most of it is soul and feeling.
Never stop listening and transcribing regardless of how great you feel you can improvise.
Let me know if you have any questions!
Jason
I can improvise a bit, but I frequently make mistakes or, as Miles would say "Bad Choices". England at that time was very much Brass Bands and classical orientated. I didn't have a great music teacher at school and because I was interested in Jazz rather than classical, I was the outcast.
I don't transcribe at all. Like I said I'm not that good at music theory so the syncopated rhythms used in jazz wouldn't get correctly transcribed by my anyway. I do know the theory of 4 part harmony composition though.
Since you can't transcribe, there are plenty of people who have already done it for you. In fact, there was a post here just a couple of days ago with a link to dozens of transcriptions by Clifford Brown and others FREE. Do a search for it. No excuses if you really want to learn.
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:51 am Post subject:
Start small and grow your skill. Begin with a single one bar lick. Take it off a recording. Learn it well in all keys. Be sure you get the rhythm right. Then pick another lick and repeat. Gradually work these licks into your playing. At first pick an easy tune like Lady Bird. Keep at it and you'll be surprised how rapidly you'll progress. _________________ Jim Hatfield
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: Bebop
TrentAustin wrote:
Start with Bird. Learn from the best!
-T
I studied with Joe Daley in Chicago. We had to learn a new Bird solo every week, play a tune through the 12 keys, practice his "Daley Dozen" scales and arpaggios, play 2 choruses of blues through the keys (12) every day, play on turn-around changes (yes, through the keys) every day. pick a tune and figure out the changes on the piano by ear every week. That's all I can think of. It is rigorous and demanding. It was a comittment of 3 or so hours a day of practice to do it right. Rich Corpolongo, Joe's protege still teaches Joes system. Ask Nick Drozdoff about him. I'm still TRYING to get it right.
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:06 am Post subject:
sorry, rigorous and demanding are two words that don't come up in jazz for me. Fun and exciting, interesting and emotional. More often, whoops and daisy...
first thing I was told by the professor of jazz piano in a beginning improvisation class which hit home was, "this music is hard, if you are here because you think jazz music and improvisation would be a fun elective to fill up your schedule, you are in the wrong class."
Even the young lions of the 80s and 90s who received praise and publicity early on in their careers put in the hours. They just started earlier doing the work.
Shouldn't it be hard work? I always have more fun when my hard work pays off by being able to create something of value.
The OP wants to be able to do something that is not reading notes off a page, it is spontaneous composition (notes, rhythm, feel, delivery, context). No band-aids, address the wounds directly. The best players/improvisors whether they were academically schooled or not have tremendous ears that provide them instantaneous knowledge that many of them cannot articulate verbally of how they do what they do because their minds are achieving the goal in their mind's ear, processing so much data strictly from what their ears are telling them.
If you want to connect your ideas, base those ideas off of chord tones (specifically 3rds and 7ths) and you will naturally connect them similar to me drawing two dots on a piece of paper and you connecting them. The biggest leap is relying on your ears vs. your eyes. Most of us are taught visually disproportionately to aurally. So it is hard to use what is underdeveloped (in relation).
All of my "ah-ha" moments had something to do my ears. These are like golf shots, once you have a good "ah-ha" moment you want the next one really bad and that is when you realize the work it takes to get to the next one.
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