Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:57 am Post subject: list of basic aspects of playing
I'm compiling a list of the BASIC building blocks of the 'Aspects of Playing'. My intention is for it to be accurate, concise, and understandable.
I realize that it might seem too basic, nerdy and mechanical for you to find useful. But I feel that if such a list can be built, it will serve as a solid basis for many players who experience difficulty in those aspects, and who have wandered off-track.
I'd appreciate your input to help make this project a success.
And my outline for the list is ---
JKosta@pronetisp.net
The primary aspects of playing are: lips, teeth, jaw, throat, neck, tongue, lungs, torso muscles, posture, mouthpiece selection, mouthpiece placement, mouthpiece pressure, mouthpiece angle, air usage, left hand placement, right hand placement, fingering, …
What is the generally accepted, conventional method, good technique ‘building blocks’ for each property of an Aspect? What should be encouraged and/or suppressed for each property? What is a good ‘analogy description’ for each property?
Aspect:
Physical Properties:
Physical Feelings Properties:
Physical Control and Coordination Properties:
Mental Focus Properties:
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:51 am Post subject:
JayKosta wrote:
trompette229 wrote:
...
Yes, many of the words used by brilliant players and teachers are not always literal but that's not the point of why they use them, they use them because in doing so they get the best results.
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In situations of direct teacher-to-student instruction, various non-literal approaches can be used successfully BECAUSE the teacher can immediately detect and correct problems.
Trouble can occur later when the student forgets the fine points that were presented during the lesson period, but only remembers the non-literal words and tries to apply them in a literal manner.
That is why I believe students should have access to a short, well-written explanation of the basic fundamentals of trumpet embouchure, sound production, and air control. The explanation doesn't need to go into the science of why things happen, only the basics of what needs to happen.
An additional section might provide information about the science for those who are interested.
Jay
I think this is spot on - for many people, having these things presented as visualizations is very useful, and lots of great players use them, and that's 100% fine. The problem is when those visualizations are presented by someone in a position of authority without the qualifier "it feels to me like the air is speeding up, so I envision faster air for higher notes" and instead as, "faster air = higher notes" (or higher tongue arch = higher notes, or smaller aperture = higher notes, etc.), so a well-meaning student dutifully does exactly, only that thing and can't understand why it doesn't work for them, and thinks they must be screwing it up, or not working hard enough, when the action they're focusing on might be associated with the effect they want, but isn't actually the cause, so, taken at face value, it's never going to give the results they want.
trompette229 - if you take the time to look, Darryl has actually been very consistent about saying that he has no problem with people using visualizations, or focusing on the tongue, or whatever helps them, but his issue is specifically is with presenting these visualizations as scientific fact, when the actual facts are different. For some people, these simplifications are really useful, and that's enough, but for some others, they're really, really destructive.
Personally, whether or not people choose to use this information is totally individual, as it should be, but I have a hard time seeing how it's not better to have accurate facts be widely available and understood, especially by teachers.
Science is good, no argument here. In the end what I'm saying is I think Kalijah would be far better off authoring his own posts about what he thinks the science is instead of constantly looking for every post by players and teachers that mention airspeed, tongue arch etc and criticizing and/or correcting them.
It would be far more effective for him to have videos of himself playing the trumpet and showing how his theoretical knowledge makes him a better player and teacher, let the work speak for itself.
In the end what I'm saying is I think Kalijah would be far better off authoring his own posts about what he thinks the science is instead of constantly looking for every post by players and teachers that mention airspeed, tongue arch etc. and criticizing and/or correcting them.
Generally it would be nice to talk about music without having to pay penance to the trumpet gods buy uttering all the secret buzzwords and trumpetspeak of "air speed" and "compressions" and all kinds of things that trumpet players not only frequently speak of but don't really agree upon the definition, much less really understand. Its just psychobabble to APPEAR informed and acceptable.
Also its interesting that so-and-so players can present science "explanations" FREQUENTLY and be back-slapped for how "brilliant" they are. (When often they are flat wrong but beyond reproach because they are the popular names, or just relentless self-promoters.)
And its not the mention of "tongue arch" that I respond to. It is the fake mechanics that accompany the "explanation" of tongue arch cause and effect. And my contribution is not to try to convince the author, but to offer an alternative to the reader ONCE the subject has been introduced.
Also, were I to introduce "science" threads, even clearly explained and factually correct, the response is absolutely predictable. Namely:
"PARRALYSIS! PARALYSIS!" (Interesting that this criticism is not reserved for certain individuals.)
"You must be a HORRIBLE player", (Yes, this has been written to me by those who NEVER heard me play, since I guess playing ability is judged by the popular language utterances and not what comes out of my instrument)
Or yet, in absence of a meaningful argument or counterpoint just make a personal attack or a mocking/nonsense post.
Quote:
It would be far more effective for him to have videos of himself playing the trumpet and showing how his theoretical knowledge makes him a better player and teacher, let the work speak for itself.
I do appreciate the suggestion.
It is in the works. But time for that is limited. Generally career and music performance and practice is the priority, at least up to now. But things are about to change. There will be ample opportunity for folks to get pissed-off at my contributions as they become more frequent and widespread. I cant wait!
These sorts of discussions about the physics of trumpet playing make me wonder how the Toyota trumpet robot works, and whether there's anything human trumpet players can learn from it:
Jay wrote...That is why I believe students should have access to a short, well-written explanation of the basic fundamentals of trumpet embouchure, sound production, and air control. The explanation doesn't need to go into the science of why things happen, only the basics of what needs to happen.
__________________________________________________________
Jay, I agree 100% with that. Here's an example of so called instruction. I was taking a golf lesson awhile back, & the instructor went on & on for half an hour on the physics or science of making a full swing & hitting a golf ball; backspin, launch angle, radius, bla bla bla bla bla! Finally, I said to him look, stand in front of me & just show me what I'm doing wrong, & then demonstrate & show me how to do it right! That's it! I see many videos of instruction on the trumpet, & these people are generous to give their time for free so to speak, to explain things. Take embouchure for instance. They'll show you by playing say from C below the staff, to C above the staff. But they won't show you what's going on with their embouchure aperture BEHIND the horn. Yeah great, you can play like Harry James; but what about a close up of your facial structure, how you form your embouchure & associated aperture, & how you transition that as you move up the staff. Charlie does do that in his videos. (Picture worth a 1000 words)?
Ok, then why doesn't Charlie Porter title his video "recommended actions to play trumpet", What is the point of the junk science subject-matter?
BTW, the tongue does not compress the air, and yes, Charlie did pre-define air "compression" as an increase in air pressure in that very video.
Some videos are even more void of anything helpful declaring that its ALL ABOUT AIRSPEED while failing to mention or even out-right denying or forbidding that the lip posture influences pitch at all.
. . . the driver of the robot trumpet player's sound is not any mechanical buzzing of some membrane or lip-like structure. It is an electrically generated sound wave (so nothing that can really be used by human players). _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Ok, then why doesn't Charlie Porter title his video "recommended actions to play trumpet", What is the point of the junk science subject-matter?
BTW, the tongue does not compress the air, and yes, Charlie did pre-define air "compression" as an increase in air pressure in that very video.
Some videos are even more void of anything helpful declaring that its ALL ABOUT AIRSPEED while failing to mention or even out-right denying or forbidding that the lip posture influences pitch at all.
Correct, what the tongue arch and decreasing apature diameter does is increase air speed, which decreases pressure….anti-compression, also called a turbine, LOL.
This effect is also present when a smaller backbore is used to help with range.
Charlie does talk about airspeed via the tongue & perhaps more important, lip posture or position regarding the aperture, & a close up off the horn as to how to do that in this video How To Form a Trumpet (brasswind) Embouchure in Four Steps. It is lengthy & could probably be shortened, but I guess he thought that there are those out there who are picking up a horn for the first time. So it's extremely informative but based on one's experience, you'll get out of it, what you get out of it. He also says that while a majority of players, some well known do form their embouchure like that, the formation so to speak could differ from player to player depending upon their facial structure. He goes on to say that because of variations in a players make up, that this is a middle of the road set up.
Correct, what the tongue arch and decreasing apature diameter does is increase air speed, which decreases pressure….anti-compression, also called a turbine, LOL.
But narrowing the path with the tongue arch, or making the lip aperture smaller, does not increase the velocity of flow through the lip aperture. Any reductions in static pressure are negligible over the tongue relative to viscous loss of TOTAL pressure, especially for really high "hiss" postures. (And people still believe that adds "compression", which is completely absurd). Sorry Charlie.
And the mp back bore effects the propagation of the acoustic wave. Any tiny difference in the static pressure due to flow is dwarfed by the pressure variance of the standing wave.
Kalija...I'm in no position to say who's right or who's wrong. All I know is that Charlie demonstrates in his video how to set your embouchure & aperture, & how to transition from low to high, first with just the lips so you can see what he does & then with the mouthpiece. Point is, step by step, seeing how it's done up close, carries a lot of weight. Conversely, all we're getting from you is scientific theory. Make a video showing us your method up close & personal, so we can see this so called "opposing view" & judge & try it for ourselves. (Not a knock, but talk is cheap).
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:10 pm Post subject:
Making the aperture smaller makes it possible to maintain a high internal pressure for a longer period of time.
The air pressure difference between the internal pressure and the pressure on the outside of the aperture determines the velocity of the air molecules through the aperture - an increase in the difference between those pressures results in an increase in the velocity.
I think that many people are sensitive to the feeling of the velocity of the air through their lips. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Scientific principles are all well & good gentlemen & there are those of us on this forum that don't have the experience to doubt how you guys set up so to speak, versus others & who has the best most efficient way of playing & moving through the scales low to high & visa-versa. . All I'm saying is, if there are opposing views , make a video & show us how you feel it should be done.
Scientific principles are all well & good gentlemen & there are those of us on this forum that don't have the experience to doubt how you guys set up so to speak, versus others & who has the best most efficient way of playing & moving through the scales low to high & visa-versa. . All I'm saying is, if there are opposing views , make a video & show us how you feel it should be done.
There aren't opposing views, per se. Kalijah is describing what is ACTUALLY happening and Charlie Porter is describing what he THINKS is happening (that describes his experience and may be useful pedagogically). So the two demonstrations will look nearly identical for "good trumpeters" but the words will be different.
You can look at something and interpret what you see in a number of ways. What kalijah does is let you know the mechanism behind it.
For example: you could see rainbows throughout your whole life and not understand what a rainbow is doing. Kalijah is saying, well: I know everybody says rainbows are created when a puppy dies, but it's actually water droplets blah blah. One describes experience, and one is describing reality.
Conversely, all we're getting from you is scientific theory.
Charlie breached the scientific theory. Not me.
Perhaps you missed my point. Nothing in is wrong with action-oriented instruction and I believe that is the best kind. There is no need to "sell" your technique by some "sciency" claims.
Simply: "arch the tongue as you ascend, it seems to help" is just never sufficient, is it?
Not so. Kalijah is opposing what Charlie is saying. That's his right & I'm not an advocate for Charlie. I'm just saying the it seems that Kalijah has a habit for lack of a better word of opposing what everyone says here just for the sake of opposing it; & reading through these posts, it seems that others feel the same way. If you're going to oppose what someone is explaining, fine, God Bless America. Kalijah tends to explain his views via quantum physics & aerodynamic principles. Put a video out there that will show us how you put your views to practical use actually playing the trumpet. When Charlie describes what he "thinks is happening" it results in actually playing what thinks is happening. All I see Kalijah doing, is describing what HE THINKS is happening but does not back that up by demonstrating what he thinks is happening. So make a video & show us.
Kalijah tends to explain his views via quantum physics & aerodynamic principles
Ah, but Charlie didn't do that.
Got it!
Quote:
Kalijah is opposing what Charlie is saying.
I specifically disagree with his claim that the tongue "compresses" the air. Not with his instruction that one SHOULD allow the tongue to arch up and forward as one ascends.
If I did a video it would be basically the same actions without any "compressions" nonsense. Other than the "compression" of the exhalation action, the first "compression" is the only ACTUAL compression.
Last edited by kalijah on Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
They're not "sciency claims"! The guys is describing what he does & how what he does works, & then is backing it up by actually playing in the way he describes how to play. You're the one throwing around sciency aerodynamic principles, & not backing that up by putting a horn to your mouth & showing us how you think it should be done.
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