Slotting

WaxHaX0rS · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jul 2003 Posts: 524

I hear this stuff about "slotting". Now I'm probably a trumpet newbie compared to most of the people here (6 years, this year is my 2nd year in highschool), but what is slotting? I'm guessing that when a trumpet has "good slotting" it makes each note come out distinctly and clearly without a little variation in pitch. Am I right?

fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:05 pm Post subject:

slotting refers to a note's "place" so to speak on a horn. i look at it kinda like a parking place for a car.... parking places are different. some are big and you can easily get your car into it without a whole lot of pulling forward, backing out, pulling forward, backing out to straighten your car up in the space. some parking places are small, and you have to put forth a little more effort in parking your car straight. some horns have big "slots" in which notes are more easier to put in their "place". some horns have smaller slots in which you have to really concentrate or else the note will "slot" incorrectly and you will split that note. i would be curious to see how other people define slotting. I would like to better understand it.

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WaxHaX0rS · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jul 2003 Posts: 524

Oh, so if a horn has "good slotting" it has big slots then?

fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:16 pm Post subject:

I wouldn't necessarily say the slots are "bigger"... but that's where I don't really understand slotting. I just know that horns differ in that some horns slot easier than others.
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drunkiq · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:19 pm Post subject:

yes and now - a horn should slot in certian notes in tune - there are aways some normal one for us that are sharp and require us to pull out the first or third slide....

however a heaver horn will slot each note rather easy - the ligter the horn the more flexable and loose the slots are inbetwwen the notes... it is said they once getting use to a lighther horn that the heavier ones wll seem slugish in responce due to the slotting... everyone reacts diffferent to every horn - some like them heavy, some like them light....

hope that did not confuse you more... my back pills are kicking in so somone may want to re-summurize what i am trying to convey...

-marc

fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:23 pm Post subject:

I have noticed a big difference in slotting between the Yamaha Heavywall I used to play and the Schilke X3 that I play on now. The Yamaha slotted better, but the response and sound are better on my X3. I am getting used to the slots on the X3, and it is a little more difficult, but I think it will suit me better in the long run.
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SDW2001 · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:22 am Post subject:

My X3 slots better than any horn I've played.

I've always understood slotting to be the ease of getting a note to speak on the horn. Eash note has it's place and it's a little hard to describe. In other words, I'd define it as the ease of playing particular pitches accurately without missing them.

drunkiq · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:39 am Post subject:

wow,

i could tell i was on some pretty heavy meds on my last reply (still am but have some cream of wheat in my tummy) - but it is still correct -heavy slots eaiser than lighter horn... but like i said, one use to it, it slots perfect, only people going from heavy wall horns usually notice this effect at first.... it makes not difference and if you ever play a heavier horns again will seem REAL sluggish in how it responds..

I also wanted to bring up the fact that bore and bell size/flair can change the intervials of the slots...

for instance when playing in the upper register on a small bore horn, the slot between notes are very close together and it takes a bit or work to master control in this registery... the benifit it, it takes a lot less air!!!

on a large bore/large bell horn the slot are father apart (noteall of this is based on my experiance so if anyone wants to jump and abou it, by all means do so) and since they are farther apart it is eaiser to get the notes to slot... however there is a big, big draw back - AIR - TONS of AIR - but you do get that fat sound...

i have seen screamers play on both large, medium large, and medium bore horns with differen kinds of bell flairs - in the end it is what ever horn work for you best...

-marc

maynard-46 · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:05 am Post subject:

My way of thinking of and explaining slotting to my students is this...some trumpets ( usually lighter horns like a Schilke, Benge, Calicchio, etc.) are very "slippery" when moving from one note to the next. Other horns are much more "locked in" when changing pitches. An example...I have 3 trumpets and they're all different as far as slotting goes...that's partially why I use them for the different types of playing that I do. For instance...my Schilke B7 is VERY slippery compared to the others and makes a GREAT lead horn because of it's flexibility, especially when doing shakes, whether they be intervals of 3rd's, 4th's, 5th's or even octaves. My Kanstul "Mariachi" slots very well but not as easily (slippery) as the Schilke. This horn makes for an excellent all-around trumpet and can cover just about ANY type gig. My 3rd horn is a Taylor Chicago II Standard Model. This is a VERY heavy horn and the slots REALLY lock in tightly! It's a good horn for jazz, legit, section, etc. as I feel very secure on it as far as not missing whatever note I'm going after. However...I wouldn't want to play any extended lead parts on it because you'd simply be working WAY too hard!!! I'm really not saying anything different from all of the previous posts on this subject...I'm just relating it in a little bit of a different way. I find that students relate to the words "slippery" and "locked-in" pretty well and, if I re-enforce it by having them do some lip slurs on my three horns, the term we're refering to..."slotting'...becomes somewhat more understandable to them. Just MY way of thinking on this subject...hope it helps!

Butch Warnke
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Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:14 am Post subject:

Similar to what Butch said, I don't think of slotting as "good" or "bad", although lots of promotional materials from builders certainly uses those terms. I think slots can be "narrow" or "wide", and also, to use Butch's terms "slippery" or "locked-in". They could be narrow and slippery, or wide and slippery, or wide and locked-in, or narrow and locked-in, or anywhere in between. Very wide and very slippery is probably a bad thing, but otherwise, the other possibilities all have their merits. Student horns are usually designed to have narrow, locked-in slots to assist students play accurately. Professional horns need to be either wider or slipperier to allow more developed players to play in tune and with greater flexibility.

maynard-46 · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:20 am Post subject:

Nonsense Eliminator,
I agree 100%...nice post!

Butch Warnke
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Bruce Lee · Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:36 am Post subject:

Butch, and N. E. - Great posts!!!

N. E. wrote: "I don't think of slotting as "good" or "bad", although lots of promotional materials from builders certainly uses those terms."

The term "slotting" has grown from the manufacturer's ability to make the machining "tolerances" closer together, particularly in the valve section. The machines that are being used to produce their products are infinitely more accurate than those from even fifteen or twenty years ago. There has been kind of a renaissance in manufacturing, in that most of the machines used to produce instruments, in the 40's to mid-60's, have been replaced. Also, credit needs to be given to the designers of the instruments being manufactured... especially the relative "newcomers" to the industry. I think that it is extremely important to add that this goes way beyond the "cloning" of these products, and marketing claims.

N.E. wrote: "I think slots can be "narrow" or "wide", and also, to use Butch's terms "slippery" or "locked-in". They could be narrow and slippery, or wide and slippery, or wide and locked-in, or narrow and locked-in, or anywhere in between. Very wide and very slippery is probably a bad thing, but otherwise, the other possibilities all have their merits.

Student horns are usually designed to have narrow, locked-in slots to assist students play accurately. Professional horns need to be either wider or slipperier to allow more developed players to play in tune and with greater flexibility."

While much of this is true, good "slotting" is the result of a combination of three things:

1. The player.

2. The horn.

3. The mouthpiece.

This has been stated, especially by GR Tech, with respect to this topic. When any one aspect changes, the others will need to change, in order to maintain maximium efficiency.

In general, the slots are controlled by a number of different factors. A horn needs to be balanced, especially between the bell and leadpipe combination, in order for it to be considered efficient. Much of the slotting is determined by the design of the bell, which includes taper, and size of the bell throat. A large bell throat, and fast taper, in combination with a very open bore size, will tend to result in "very wide, and very slippery". A bell with a slower taper, and a later bell flare, will have a more focused sound, and smaller "slots".

I agree with Butch, in that the heavier horns will provide more resistance, and thus have an effect upon endurance. However, as far as slotting is concerned, that is determined by the design of the bell, rather than by its weight. I think that much of that perception has to do with the behind the horn "feel", or "feedback", rather than weight.

I would like to back these statements up with comments about a few horns that I am quite familiar with.

When I had my Lawler 26BL/1A trumpet converted to an SLS - briefcase model. The "slots" felt the same, but the resistance increased. I found that the volume envelope was expanded, with the added weight of the conversion, and that the sound does not break up when really pushed. Neither was there a loss of sound while playing lightly. In terms of "slot" with regard to bell design... taper and flare... from the smallest taper to the largest: TL5, TL1, and TL6... is the order. The TL7 falls in with the TL5, but is lighter in weight, and more "directional". Each one of these models is fitted with a leadpipe that balances the horn, and controls the "slots". Options are available to fine tune the horn to your desired "feel", as far as "slotting" is concerned.

The Callet Jazz is an interesting horn. It is a large - .470 bore, but, it "slots" like crazy, especially in the upper register, and it has great projection. The "slots" on the Jazz are definitely "wider", and "more slippery". Although it's a great horn, and an ulitimate horn for big band, I am much more comfortable on a .460 bore trumpet. That said, I have yet to experience the Stratosphere.

Now... with the Eclipse line of trumpets, things are very interesting, with regard to "slotting" and the "width" of the "slot". First of all, each model is a ML - .460 bore, with an uninterrupted leadpipe. The tuning-slide is located at the back of the horn, at the bell bow. The bell is "fixed" (braced) for "stability". (Maybe this helps to give the Eclipse horns a "locked-in" feel?) With this design, the players energy is transferred to the bell of the horn, where the resonant properties of the horn lie, and size of the "slots" are determined... in my opinion. In order of bell shape.... Medium Classic, Medium, and Large Red (or Yellow), the size of the "slots" increase slightly as bell taper, and flare increase, while everything else stays the same. These horns have great "slotting" characteristics, AND, at the same time have extremely good "flexibility", or a "more slippery" feel... something that we normally tend to find as bore size increases. I think that the uninterrupted leadpipe is mostly responsible for this, but in terms of what has been stated previously:.. "Professional horns need to be either wider or slipperier to allow more developed players to play in tune and with greater flexibility." ... it appears that Eclipse is really on to something here!.. in my opinion.

The Equinox, also by Eclipse, is my favorite. It's also what I personally play. It differs in design from most trumpets, but it does everything that I need a horn to do, and I have a personal attachment to the horn, as well. The "slots" feel closer together, so it's very easy to get around. The Equinox a great low and middle register, an awesome upper register, great "slotting", great intonation, and, as with all Eclipse horns... uncanny "flexibility". I never feel like I am working, while playing this horn. I'm pretty sure that we are supposed to enjoy ourselves, while we are playing! I hope that we are ALL in total agreement about that statement!

I hope that this provokes some thoughts with regard to "slotting". Thanks for reading!

Best always,

Bruce

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[ This Message was edited by: bruce lee on 2003-09-01 11:27 ]

jhatpro · Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:55 am Post subject:

It's hard to appreciate the concept of slotting unless you have a horn that does it well. I recently bought my first new horn in many years, a Kanstul ZKT 1504, and realized what a new set of valves in a well made horn can mean in terms of how the notes "click" into place. It seems as though the horn finds the pitch centers on its own.
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Oxfordite · Veteran Member Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 180

Bruce,

Does the Equinox have more resistance than the other Eclipse trumpets? The reason I ask is that I figured it might because it has the extra bend at the back of the horn. Also does the horn feel really balanced due to the weight distribution? I suppose that is the biggest advantage of the horn, huh?

Bruce Lee · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:06 am Post subject:

Hi, Jay!

"Does the Equinox have more resistance than the other Eclipse trumpets? The reason I ask is that I figured it might because it has the extra bend at the back of the horn."

There is a slight difference in feel, with the Equinox, in comparison with the other Eclipse trumpets. The Equinox is a .460 - ML bore, like the others. The closest is the Large Red, because they share the same bell design/material. Like all Eclipse trumpets, the leadpipe area is uninterrupted. On the Equinox, the leadpipe has been shortened, in order to move the valve section closer to the player. The length was added back on the bell side of the horn, with the extra wrap. The tuning slide is at the back of the Equinox, like on the other Eclipse modes, but is part of the wrap. It can be easily seen in pictures. I don't have a feeling that there is more resistance, as much as I feel that the response is slightly quicker, and slotting "feels" closer, as a result of the shortend leadpipe. In other words, you're a lot closer to the action.

"Also does the horn feel really balanced due to the weight distribution? I suppose that is the biggest advantage of the horn, huh?"

In moving the valve section closer to the player, yes, the balance point is closer, and with the added wrap at the back of the Equinox, it is definitely not "bell heavy". In descriptions written earlier on, around the time of the release of the Equinox, it was stated that when you pick the horn up, and hold it, the "feel" is cornet, but the "sound" is most definitely trumpet. This is what "lonelyangel" aka Noel Langley/Eclipse Artist had to say about the Equinox:

"The Equinox really can sing, and it really is perfect, as a soloist's trumpet. The stability and projection of the horn is remarkable, as with the regular Eclipse, but you will really notice the intimate nature of the horn. It feels more personal, the sound is closer to you - easier to own and to control."

As for the "biggest advantage" of the Equinox? ... The fullness of sound in the low and middle register, and the ability to really soar in the upper register is great. One thing that I would like to add, is that the Bauerfiend valves (featured on all Eclipse models), which have a slightly shorter "throw", also contribute to being able to get around the horn much more quickly. Great intonation, and great slotting, too. When a horn does so many things so well, you don't have to think about which one to pull out of your case to play... THAT, to me, is the "biggest advantage"!

Best always,
Bruce
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oneeyedhobbit · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:45 pm Post subject:

What effect, if any, do valve tolerances have on slotting? At one point I remember Roy Lawler saying something about some Yammies haveing extremely tight tolerances, and that this made the slotting too "tight." He said they were too locked in, so he had to lap the valves and make them every so miniscutely looser, just to make the slots (while still tight) a little bit "freer." Perhaps Mr. Lawler will be so gracious as to comment, I can't recall, but I know I've noticed a difference. In the Xeno I tested, the playing seemed almost...mechanical, the slots were so tight I couldn't do as much stylistcally as I watned. With my V1, it is the perfect balance-tight, yet loose enough (slippery ifyou prefer

) for me to still be able to stylize things.

Bruce Lee · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:21 am Post subject:

oneeyedhobbit,

Yamaha's, and tight valve tolerances... Well, that's a perfect example to use for understanding "slotting". Also, since Yamaha really got its start as a result of the knowledge shared by a brilliant consultant, by the name of Renold Schilke, there are even more answers to be gleaned from this whole idea.

At one time, Renold Schilke actually designed a trumpet whose valve tolerances were so tight that the hand pressure exerted by the left hand, while gripping the trumpet, was so tight that the valves would not function because of the external pressure that it placed on the piston.

When the "Olds" company was designing the Mendez model, they used Raphael Mendez' French Besson Brevete for a model. When the first Mendez prototypes were made, the valve tolerances were much tighter than they were on Raphael's Besson. He did not like the way that the horn played, and "refused" to have his name put on the instrument unless it played like his Besson. As you can imagine, the valve tolerances on Mendez' Besson were not "tight". He was looking for a more "slippery" feel, or rather one that gave him greater flexibility. The valve tolerances were increased, Raphael Mendez agreed to "endorse" Olds, and to have his name put on the model. Whether the tolerances on all Mendez models were all the same, that's for a whole other discussion.

Back to Yamaha.... As you may know, the Yamaha musical band instruments fall under the same parent company that builds motorcyles, jet-ski's, etc. "High performance", when it comes to engines, relies upon close tolerances in their "valve sections", in order to provide the proper high-compression ratio for achieving speed, and performance. This technology spilled over into the musical instrument part of manufacturing, for Yamaha. It is responsible for the consistency of each model, at the risk of sounding to "vanilla" for most trained "ears". If the Yamaha tolerances are too tight, and they do not play "slippery" enough, then it is your choice as to whether or not to play a Yamaha trumpet.

To follow that "road" of thought, "yes"... valve tolerances do affect the "feel", and "slotting" of trumpets. Our choice of trumpet, with regard to manufacturer, and model, is dependent on the "feel" of the trumpet, which is governed, in part, by valve compression, and tolerances that each manufacturer sets as their "standard". It is not the whole reason for the performance of the instrument, but, it does play a major role. I hope that this helps!

Best always,
Bruce
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UsedBits · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject:

Slotting, to me, has meant the ease with which one can change partials, i.e., lip slurs, versus the ease with which one can lip a note up or down. A 'wide' slot will allow for lots of varience in lipping a note up or down but can be quite difficult to execute lip slurs and shakes, whereas a 'narrow' slot won't allow much lipping up or down but will easily execute lip slurs, shakes, etc.

A 'wide' slot will allow for a huge hand vibrato, but a 'narrow' slot would end up changing notes when trying to execute a huge hand vibrato, i.e., it would come out as a shake.

If this is correct, I still don't know what is meant by a horn 'slotting well'. Does this mean a wide or narrow slotting characteristic?

If this is correct, my Benges on which I can mightly bend notes up and down (mostly down) but have trouble with lip slurs, would be characterized as having a 'wide' slot.
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_dcstep · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:53 pm Post subject:

drunkiq · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:45 pm Post subject:

From my experience of trying different horns:

1. Slippery slots vs. Locked slots = heavy horn vs. super light horn

(The lighter the horns slots do not lock as well, they are looser – it takes more control to go between lets say an open c and open e without overshooting, this goes away with practice and once master the lighter horn will be very responsive. Most say once use to a lighter horn, that trying to play on a heavier horn will seem sluggish an lack responce)

2. Narrow slots vs. Wide slots = smaller bore horn vs. large bore horn – (keep in mind bell taper does effect this too)

I hope that clears that up for everyone...

I also hope I do not get much disagreement, I really think those that play on lighter horns and bigger bore horns and have tried the opposite end of the spectrum will agree with me on both #1 and #2.

I also think those that just play on any big bore/bell horn that have tried a smaller bore horn will agree with my #2 - the slot are wider and noticed most in the upper registry (of course for those of you that do not now - the wider slot between notes in the upper register is nice but come at the cost of lots of air)

I also think that any that plays on a lighter horn to and has tired a much heaver horn will agree with my analogy on #1.

All the best,

-marc melton
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