KTR 700 and other ramblings...

livertwist · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:43 am Post subject:

Hi.

I recently bought a '56 Holton Stratodyne from eBay and learned my eBay lesson the hard way (even though I should have learned it before... bad!). I paid $350 for it and it needs at least $300-$400 of work; the valves are pitted and some of the plate is missing. Hence, there is zero compression and they need to be rebuilt. Of course, if I'm going to bother with that, I might as well get the remaining lacquer stripped (there isn't much anyway) and get it re-lacquered. I contacted Oberloh and it will be about $600-$800 for a complete overhaul and I will get the horn back likely around next May. <sigh> The good news is that the seller is likely going to refund most of my money (or all of it, should I choose to forgo the repairs and send it back). On top of that, the trumpet actually plays really well - a warm tone with a very easy upper register (waaaaay easier than the student horns I've played on). My girlfriend noticed how good I sound right away. So that is my thoughts on that; I'm not quite sure if I will do it or not, we'll see. I suppose you're wondering about the title of the post...

I've decided that it's time for me to buy an actual NEW horn; two things convinced me of this. 1) I sound much MUCH better on a pro-level horn and thus play more often and might *possibly* progress faster. 2) I love the vintage stuff, but I realize that there is always a chance you are taking when you buy one. Even if I get the Holton completely overhauled, it might not be to my liking when I get it back.

So here's what I'm wondering. The Kanstul KTR 700 by all accounts is a great horn, and a great price to boot. And it's in my price range. The thing is, living in Canada (Calgary especially), there are NO places to try out these horns. The only optionis I have are Yamaha Xenos, Bach Strads, or Jupiter/King/B&S etc etc. The Xenos go for $2300 and the Strads for $2600 (that's about $1600 and $1800 respectively). Not too bad, but that is about $1000US more than what I can get a KTR700 for. Do you guys think I should buy a KTR700 sight unseen? Everyone has praised it and the cool thing is I can customize it to however I want. Heavy valve caps, rounded slide, special finishes, etc. That being said, if I buy one custom, likely my return policy on it is somewhat void. (maybe not though, not sure on this) I play in a community band, both for concert and jazz. I'm not yet especially advanced, but I'm improving rapidly (about 1 1/2 years back into a comeback after a 12 year layoff).

What are your thoughts on this? Should I just buy something local that feels good and pay the extra bucks, or give the Kanstul a shot (at a muuuch lower price and the option to customize it)?

Thanks for your input.

Oliver

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

Oliver...it might be out of your price range...but I understand that The Gramophone in Edmonton still has the three Schilke Bb's that I left them with when I bought my B1 back in October. These would be X3, B5, and S32. Bryan (owner of the Gramophone) also is a dealer for B & S so you might consider giving him a holler. He's a nice guy, easy to work with, has a great "listening room" in his shop and a full Warburton kit on hand. He also knows trumpet... used to play in a quintet with Jens Lindeman (before CB days).

My understanding of the Kanstul line is that the 609 is a superb horn for the money. Pick Music (of this forum) has a return policy I believe (you could check with her). Yes, the shipping cost is a hassle for us "up this way"...no way around that I think. (Well, there IS...but it involves having a horn shipped to a UPS warehouse in Sweetgrass MT and driving down to pick it up and importing the horn "in person". That way, if its a real dog you could return it directly via the UPS warehouse and not have to hassle Cdn. Customs at all).

Of course, St. Johns carries the Yamaha and Jupiter lines and Long & McQuade have Bach, B & S, and various and sudry others on hand. St. John's had an 8345 Xeno that they were trying to sell for $1,500 c/w case and one of the low price, Silent Brass systems. Probably gone by now. I tried it, didn't like it but I've gotten used to the open blow of a Schilke. Ask "Graham"; he'll know what they've got.

Here in Lethbridge, Leister's Music have a strad, a couple of F. Besson (92's?) with the Najoom leadpipe, and a Conn 60? or 64? Can't remember but it's a new "old stock". One of the F. Besson horns is a Kanstul made, the other is French. Give me a holler if you need any other info.

_________________
Schilke B1 (GR 66***)
Getzen Eterna 800 LB (Sparx #4)
Jupiter 846L (Jupiter #7)

[ This Message was edited by: Tootsall on 2003-08-29 12:07 ]

livertwist · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:59 am Post subject:

Tootsall,

Thanks for the info. I just did some phoning around to Edmonton and Lethbridge. I was trying to stay under $1200 (Canadian) or so and the only options I found were a used Yamaha YTR-734s ($800) and a Jupiter 1010 ($1000 with the two bells) at the Bandstand in Edmonton. The thing is, that's a 3 hour drive both ways and for just more than the price of the Jupiter, I could customize a Kanstul KTR-700 and get it shipped up here. Hence my dilemma...

Does anyone have an opinion of the Kanstul compared to this Jupiter or the Yamaha (which is essentially a 6335)?

Oliver

edit: I just got an email from the guy I bought the Holton from.. he is refunding $265 to me, bringing my current investment on the Holton down to $90!! This makes the overhaul of it much more cost-effective. I think I still want the Kanstul as well though...

[ This Message was edited by: livertwist on 2003-08-29 13:05 ]

drdoct · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:09 am Post subject:

I've got the Kanstul 610 and it's the best feeling horn I tried of the Kanstul line (under $1000) the 700 &900. It's a really nice looker and of course the valves are great. Of course it doesnt have a first valve trigger or saddle, but the intonation really is that good that I wouldnt use it if I had it. I got mine for less than $500us and shipping really isnt that bad into Canada then there's the customs part which is tricky but it'd be less since the price is less. Pick music really did me a deal and Pricilla may have a few more at a good price. I also love the vintage horns but ran into the same problems and figured that I better get a dependable horn now to actually play on and maybe a little later start buying up old cornets and getting them fixed when I feel like piddling. As far as Kanstul goes, I think you couldnt go wrong buying one because every one I've played has been really nice. Hope this helps.
Pick's website is : http://www.pickmusic.net/

[ This Message was edited by: drdoct on 2003-08-29 13:10 ]

[ This Message was edited by: drdoct on 2003-08-29 13:11 ]

livertwist · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:20 am Post subject:

drdoct,

Thanks for the info! I phoned Priscilla this morning and left a message and talked with Jack Kanstul yesterday (he very graciously phoned me from his cell phone while in Phoenix !! ). I'm leaning towards the 700 mainly because of the thumb saddle, but also because I can't find any info at all on the 610 on the Kanstul site (are my eyes bad?). I think I would also like to customize the horn a bit (scratch finish in silver plate with burnished slides and gold valve caps & bottoms) so I'd have to do a special order anyway. It would likely end up around $750-$800 or so if I get the upgraded case (does anyone know what the upgraded case is, btw??). I'll keep you updated on what happens, but it looks like I'll be sending the Holton to Oberloh this afternoon and they'll give me a concrete estimate on what needs to be done once it arrives. I'll probably see it sometime next year or so. Oh well.

Oliver

baker · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:27 am Post subject:

Hello Oliver,

great, that you had a call with Pricilla and Kanstul.

Here is a discription from tom turner of the Kanstul 610.
He has played it at a trumpet fest in May. I think, you should, or could contact him about his opinion of the two horns.

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=7744&forum=7

good luck with the horns

Henning
_________________
_______
Holton LT 302
Courtois Flugel
Wiseman Case

_ConnMan · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:40 am Post subject:

Livertwist,

If your thinking about the Kanstul 700, I would recommend talking to Pair of Kings (PC). I know right now she's on vacation. You should be able to get her anytime on/after Sept 8th. I'm not sure she's ever done shipments to Canada, but she ships quite frequently all over the US. I'm pretty sure she has a Kanstul 700 in stock, she usually has those around.

As far as Kanstul VS. Yamaha VS. Jupiter, well I can't say anything about Yami's because I haven't really played one, but I do have a Jupiter pocket trumpet. I've played the Kanstul 700 and its got Jupiter beat hands down. I'm talking machining, craftsmanship, finish, and oh yeh, the important thing .... how it plays (tone, intonation, slotting, etc..)!!
I personally like the 700 better than the Custom Class 900. Kanstul finishes are nice to be able to choose from. You should see the brushed brass finish Kanstul has out now. Pictures DON'T do just, you gota see one first hand - real cool!

Hey, if you want to talk more Kanstul email me off line of TH. You can reach during the week at my work, which is what I have listed under TH OR you can email at home during the evenings and weekends at LHeimTrumpet@suscom.net

Good Luck you Canadian Honker! :>)
_________________
Playing For Him,

Kanstul 1600 "WB" w/ Kanstul two-piece B3C & S72 BB
Connstellation 38B
Kanstul 925 Flugelhorn (copper bell) w/ Kanstul two-piece BFL3C w/ 119S BB
Jupiter 416BL Pocket Trpt.
www.measureofgrace.com

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

Oliver, if you're talking directly with Jack Kanstul, why not consider the 600 series and ask him to add a thumb saddle to the 1st? With the reviews of that horn that I've read I know I'd sure consider the extra $20 or so well spent!

And, duty into Canada should be ZERO. You will, (as you probably know) have to pay the Canada Customs clearance fee, GST, and the shipping cost. I think I paid around $60 to import a $1,000 Cdn. cornet from Florida that I purchased off ebay.

I've posted the links with the Customs Tariff number before...if you need them again just let me know.

Edit: PS...don't just "accept" the price that a retail shop up here will quote you over the phone...you can usually dicker them down 15% or so....they sell so few trumpets above the "student" range that they're usually happy to see something move off the shelf!

Second Edit: My first "new" horn was a Kanstul-made Besson International. I've still got it (my son plays it). It's very lightweight and can be overblown, but the finish is great, the valves work just fine and it's intonation is MUCH better than the Strad that I eventually replaced it with (and that was subsequently replaced by the Schilke).
_________________
Schilke B1 (GR 66***)
Getzen Eterna 800 LB (Sparx #4)
Jupiter 846L (Jupiter #7)

[ This Message was edited by: Tootsall on 2003-08-29 13:58 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Tootsall on 2003-08-29 14:01 ]

livertwist · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:09 am Post subject:

Tootsall,

Great idea about the thumb saddle! I'm not sure if they can do it unless they custom make it as the first valve slide might be the short kind, which isn't designed to hold a saddle. But they likely can, for a price. I will phone and find out all that info. As far as the local dealers are concerned, you're right. They will likely dicker some on price. The thing is, the Yamaha and the Jupiter are the only two that were even remotely close to the price of that Kanstul and likely most won't play that much better. I'm leaning strongly towards the 610 now, what with everyone's recommendations. Plus, I can get them to custom finish it for not much more... the look I'm interested in is something like Paul Ayick's Conn 2B seen here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn2B1928image.html I'm still trying to decide if I should call Priscilla directly or just go through Jack Kanstul. Not sure which is the best option here...

edit: fixed the link..

Oliver

[ This Message was edited by: livertwist on 2003-08-29 14:15 ]

Scootsky · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:33 pm Post subject:

Oliver,

If you haven't done so do a search on 'KTR 700' or 'KTR700' in the 'horns' forum.
I bought a silver one sight unseen from Jack last winter and love it.
PM me for info on the purchase if you want.
POK had some lacquered 700's in stock a while back.
-Gary Scott

drdoct · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:54 am Post subject:

Oliver, I'm sure Kanstul can do whatever you want with any horn they make. The 610 is nowhere at all on any site and it's kinda the horn that doesnt exist unless you ask (IMHO). If I remember right, a lot of the double and triple high C people at the first ATF who played my horn really liked it better than the 7 or 900, but this was at the highest notes playable and definately nowhere near anything I could even imagine coming from my trumpet lips. The Amato waterkeys really do drain the water great in those horns and I'm thinking of having mine converted some time soon (lower line has regular lever ones). If you do decide to wait and talk to Pricilla you may be suprised at some deals she might have on the different signature line. I dont know what she has now, but she was offering some really bare bones prices last year on some slightly used but never owned horns which is why I got mine so cheap. Good luck in your search and be sure to keep us posted.

livertwist · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:41 am Post subject:

drdoct,

That's good to know. After reading Tom's whole-hearted recommendation of the 610, it appears to be the one I'm leaning towards. My old Pan American arrived yesterday. Great playing horn with super-fast valves. It is tight though, as it is a "pea-shooter". Still, it'll be fun to play on. I'm taking it in today for a chem clean, new corks, springs, etc. It might be a wee bit more open after that, but I'm not stressed over it. Most of the stuff I'm playing right now doesn't call for much high range so it's not a big deal if I can hit high notes much. Maybe I'll play around with the mouthpieces to see if I can find a better combo. I have this great Gershwin/1920's ragtime piece that we're performing tomorrow that I'm hoping I can use it for.

As far as the 610 is concerned, I think I'm going to save for a month or two and then order one. I've never played on a horn with a first valve saddle before, but it would be nice to have the option to start using one where it's necessary. And it would be nice to have an actual new horn. So I'll keep you updated on the progress; I definitely won't get anything unless I can customize the finish to exactly what I want; I'll post pics of what I decide on when I get it.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

Oliver

JoeWats · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:42 am Post subject:

You can tryout the Kanstul......

check it out ....

http://www.kanstulmusic.com

JW

livertwist · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:29 pm Post subject:

So, does anyone know the difference between the 610 and the 700? There are two obvious differences from what I've read: old-style water keys vs. Amado and no first valve saddle. Does the 700 have a one-piece bell? Are the valve sections different? Of the people who have played both side-by-side, does one or the other sound much better/easier to play. From what Tom said, I'm leaning towards the 610 solely for cost saving, but the 700 does have a saddle..... Still debating. It's nice to know about the try to buy thing though, thanks for the link to Jack's website.

Oliver

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

Oliver, why not ask Kanstul what the diff between the 600 and 700 series is? I think they'd be happy to tell you.

Also...who in Cowtown does chem clean and what's their price? I'm more or less happy with the 3 or 4 month home cleaning I do but one day I just might want to send something up there for a real going-over.

Edit" I changed "Cal to "Cowtown". Wouldn't want half the guys on the US west coast answering me!

_________________
Schilke B1 (GR 66***)
Getzen Eterna 800 LB (Sparx #4)
Jupiter 846L (Jupiter #7)

[ This Message was edited by: Tootsall on 2003-08-30 20:40 ]

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

Deleted double-post.

[ This Message was edited by: Tootsall on 2003-08-30 22:33 ]

DecentDude · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:33 pm Post subject:

Oliver,
If you need a case for the horn, ask that they supply a Pro-Tech double case instead of the "Deluxe" case.
If the "Deluxe" is the same gladstone type case my first "Kanny" was shipped in you stand a good chance of the horn arriving with a bent bell, mine did.
This is because there is NO padding on the inside ends (Lid part) of these cases. Any impact at all on the bell end of the case will likely result in damage.
To Kanstul's great credit, they shipped the replacement horn in a double Pro-Tech at no charge.Later, when my new C trumpet arrived, it too was in a double Pro-Tech.
I love my Kanstuls! (1500 in silver and gold, 1510A in silver, both with triggers)
D.Dude