Horn and/or mouthpiece switch

Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

I am looking for a darker sound as I am playing mostly solo jazz right now. I have been playing a Benge 3xplus for 35 years. I have an opportunity to acquire a Courtois Evolution 4 trumpet and I am interested in the horn. As far as mouthpiece, I have been playing a Schilke 13A4A, what would be a good mouthpiece transition that would lend itself to a darker tone without being too drastic of a change?
Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.

PW-Factor · Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:23 pm Post subject:

Well you could start with just a Schilke 13. Same rim size, but deeper cup and more open blow.

I have no experience with the Courtois Evo horns, but the added weight should, hypothetically, make the horn sound darker.

That being said, a Benge with a larger mouthpiece should be able to sound dark.

I'll be the first of many to say this, but a dark, warm, combo sound is more about approach than equipment. That being said, it will be VERY hard to get on a Benge with a 13a4a, but the equipment just aids in the sound production.

So, my two cents is to try out a plain old Schilke 13, and just work on playing with a darker, warmer sound on the horn you've got. Then, you can decide if a separate horn / mouthpiece is really necessary.
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nieuwguyski · Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:30 pm Post subject:

Your mouthpiece is almost certainly the main contributor to your bright sound. The 13C4 is the next-deeper stock Schilke that has the 4 rim, but between the deeper cup and larger backbore it's a fairly large jump, IMO. The 13A4a and 13A4 also both have a custom rim contour that isn't quite the same as the standard 4 rim -- the 13A4a was originally a custom model developed for Mike Vax.

My suggestion would be to call Schilke and talk to the mouthpiece shop. Tell them you want a 13A4a, with the cup deepened to a B depth and the backbore enlarged to a b. Stress that you want the same rim as the 13A4a. It'll be a custom order, but a custom mouthpiece is a lot cheaper than a new horn.
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nieuwguyski · Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:43 pm Post subject:

Allow me to add a little more explanation. I have a buddy who went on an enormous horn safari a few years ago, when he was trying to get a darker sound. The problem was, *he* didn't want a darker sound. He liked his (extremely bright) sound, but everywhere he played he was asked to tone it down.

His mouthpiece? A Schilke 13A4a, which he initially refused to change. After quite a few different trumpets and thousands of dollars, he finally ordered a 13C4 -- which he hated, describing the sound as "dead." The sound was fine, but his sound concept was very bright and he hated not having any of his accustomed brilliance. So he custom-ordered a 13B4, whereupon he discovered the difference in the 4 rim. So he custom-ordered another 13B4, specifying the 13A4 rim. And discovered that the c backbore was too open for him.

Ultimately he abandoned the Schilke and now plays a Monette. But I think the b backbore might have been the solution.
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Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

Thanks guys. I thought about experimenting with a Monette but way too pricey!! I borrowed a Marcinkiewicz from a buddy but it was the Gillette model big bore free blowing horn, after about 30 minutes on it I was worn out. I don't mind spending money on a new horn, especially if it is the right fit, I actually would like to have a gold finish as mine is silver. This horn that I am looking at also has the adjustment on the lead pipe, which I have never experienced before. Thoughts??

qcm · Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject:

Smooth Horn,

I use Schilke mouthpieces. Before you go on a horn safari of your own, you should definitely try a Schilke 13B first.

It has a slightly different, but still comfortable rim, a 26 throat, vs. the 27 on the 13A4A and a larger back bore, which should help darken the sound.

It's also a lot cheaper than a new horn.

BTW, I use that mouthpiece, and a Schilke 14, on my LA Benge 3X.

-Dave
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Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

Guys, thanks for all the help. I'll do some mouthpiece alterations first before I go jumping into a new horn. Nice info.

Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

Does the Schilke 13 have the exact same rim style as the 13a4a?? I am very comfortable with the rounded, soft rim on my a4a.....

nieuwguyski · Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:00 am Post subject:

giakara · Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:35 am Post subject:

solo soprano · Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:13 am Post subject:

The correct answer: Kanstul's
exact copy of Arturo Sandoval's favorite Mount Vernon Bach 3C w/ Arturo's 24 drill / goldplated
My other mpc. is a Schilke 13A4 w/22 drill / goldplated. Stay away from Schilke's (a) backbore, it's too restrictive.
Contact Jim New @ 888-Kanstul
http://www.kanstul.net

cyber_shake · Heavyweight Member Joined: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 775

Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

I am working with Schilke. They are going to do a 13A4A mouthpiece but they are going to deepen the cup to a B depth. If I'm not satisfied with that they can then change the back bore to a B. I look forward to trying it.

zackh411 · Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:18 pm Post subject:

Make sure you hang onto your old horn if you get the Courtois... those horns are cool, but I don't know if you could be as versatile with one of them.
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Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

How so?? Expound on the lack of versatility of the Courtois? Thanks..

zackh411 · Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:36 am Post subject:

Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

I am playing solo jazz so I'll just give it a try and see how it goes. You're the first person I've heard from that didn't care for the horn, but we all are comfortable with different feels and horns. Thanks for your input!!

Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

Which models did you play in Chicago??

zackh411 · Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject:

I played a bunch of different models (5 or 6 I think), including the one with the huge heavy double bell. The page for the trumpet hang says the following horns were there, so it was these, probably:
Courteous Legend series 333 and 334 in Bb
Evolution 4 and an Evolution 3.

The double bell that I played is the one that looked like this:
[img]http://austinwinds.com/photos/Used/CourtoisEvoIII.jpg [/img]

The double bell was the darkest sounding, but the other ones weren't as far off as I expected. All very dark and smooth sounding.

Remember, I didn't say I didn't like it, just that I didn't feel it was versatile. they were actually some of my favorite horns I played at the Chicago Trumpet hang. There was one model... it was silver and had nearly no bracing at all... it was gorgeous, but still had that velvety dark half-way to flugel sound as the big double bell horn.
For what you are looking for, they would probably be fantastic... my whole point is: hang onto your current horn for versatility.
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~Zack

Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill)

Smooth Horn · Regular Member Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 20

Thanks Zach, I appreciate all your input. I don't think I could sell my Benge if I tried, too sentimental. The horn I am purchasing is the Evolution IV but not the double bell model.