breathing devices

[thelurker]

How many people here use the Arnold Jacobs style breathing devices?

the main things i want to know are:

Which ones you own and use?
How do you use it?
How much out of each day is it used and when?
What results have you noticed from the use of devices?

Thank you,



[ This Message was edited by: thelurker on 2003-09-03 18:58 ]

[MarchardFerguson]

what are these?, our trombone has a ping pong ball in a tube and he blows to help his air usage

[tcutrpt]

The thing I have found for me is that I cannot use the breathing devices anywhere near the time I plan on playing. I'm talking about the ping pong ball tube/breathe building and the powerlung that I picked up at ITG last May. I do feel that they serve a purpose, but I wouldn't suggest using them right before playing. For me, it makes everything very tight and the trumpet resistance just doesn't mesh with the breathing device resistance.
_________________
Matt Cyr
trumpetmc@gmail.com

[drunkiq]

sorry don't know much about your method but thought this might help and i hope i have not offend you by posting in a method area that i do not use..

my brother learned this from my unlce - no tellling where they learned it from...

1. get a bread bag (fee when you are done using it) - keep working till you can fill it up on one breath... my brother drove me nuts on this... guess maybe why big bore/big flair horns are no biggie for me...

2. the paper excercise.... get a small piece of paper - put it in on the wall - at first you will have to be pretty close to it... but keep blowing and keep in on the wall - you are going to the have to take some quick breaths to not drop it.... later you can be farther away...

3. blowing out a candle - he use to blow out a candle that was pretty far away.... he made me do this method for while too... remember trying to get the small stream of air to go really fast, over time the candle got farther and farther away....

can tell you that i did accomplish #1, but don't remember how far or how big of a pice a paper i used... aslo same with #3, not sure how far away it was - heck I have been playing for 17 years and he had me doing this stuff from the begginig - bag was the first lesson - pretty sure it was the first year to teach me how to use air support and fill out that horn... not sure when the other's were added but the candle was second - trick he used during dinner once... #2 was last - to teach me how to take quick breaths and fill up my lungs... i think #2 and #3 where the second year, but i could be wrong after 17 years - maybe it was alll the first year...

he was pretty rough on me.. he said my uncle was worse on him.... heck my uncle had him in shape real quick....

hope this helped in some way and once again i apoligize about posting in this section since i do not use the method...

All the best to you,

-marc

[thelurker]

I welcome all comments on breathing; even those, such as you mention drunkiq, that are not exactly on point. I have done exercises of those types for many years( off and on) even though I have been somewhat lazy with the use of them.

Right now the main things I use are a breathing bag and a breathing tube, as well as the exercises to be done with out devices listed off of windandsong press .

For years I have used what i feel is to high of a flow rate to play the trumpet and have been working for the past 9 months to decrease the flow rate, and thus gain more efficiency, so for me capacity isn’t so much the problem. It is more of an issue of flow rate and relaxation. I was hoping that someone else had a similar story to tell and how they used breathing devices to work on such an issue.

Still thanks for any and all comments…..Chicago or not….

[romey1]

Those toys can help you relax.

It's more about compression than flow.

If you want flow, go play the tuba.

romey

[thelurker]

Thanks for your well thought out, full of details, reply romey1…

[TopGun]

I think most of these things work about the same. I don't think Jacobs really worked with these things at you might believe. Maybe a little bit before you pick up the horn would be good.

TopGun

[romey1]

Lurker,

If you want to learn more, come take a lesson.

romey

[thelurker]

romey1..

i have yet to see any post from you that would indicate i need a lesson from you...

[romey1]

Just remember Lurker, Compression, NOT Flow.

romey

[thelurker]

please tell me more....

[ This Message was edited by: thelurker on 2003-09-04 22:13 ]

[romey1]

Too many people want or think they need a big dark sound.

Only problem is that a big dark, round sound doesn't project in the orchestra or other settings.

People think they need to get this big, dark, round sound they need to play big equipment, drop their tongue and create a huge oral cavity - and finally and most importantly move huge amounts of air thru the horn.

This may work for younger players for a while, but as you get older you WILL hit the wall (it will break down.)

Their are two parts to playing trumpet well:

1. Air and 2. Embouchure

Both are important and one will not work without the other.

Anyone who tells you it's all air is full of it.

Anyone who tells you it is all embouchure is full of it.

Too many people want to be spoonfed by their teachers instead of learning to be their own teacher.

Too many people won't take responsibility for their own playing.

Too many people are closed minded in learning from other schools of teaching because they are loyal to Chicago School, SuperChops, Caruso, Gordon, whatever.

Sorry for the rant, but this is what I've learned.

MORE LATER

romey

[TopGun]

Is that what you were looking for thelurker?

TopGun

[thelurker]

Actually no, it isn’t…not even close

I agree with Romey1’s comments and have basically believed the same thing for a number of years and consider what you wrote to be a basic take on those items and by no means complete or telling me anything I didn’t already know.

No where in my post have I asked about dark sounds or huge amounts of air...

If anything I have been trying to get away from both concepts for years now…

I am not asking for a treatise on playing concepts…..Just how do you use breathing devices in your playing pure and simple…

I look forward to more later….don’t assume people know anything just because they ask a question…


[ This Message was edited by: thelurker on 2003-09-05 16:07 ]

[TopGun]

I think these tools should be used 5 to 10 min. before you pick up the horn. Once you pick up the horn forget about theme and think about the sound.

TopGun

[_Don Herman]

How about Song and Wind instead of air and embouchure? (Gee, I bet nobody saw that coming! ) Get the sound in your mind, and it will help tremendously. Air is important, too, of course. Embouchure is NOT unimportant -- far from it! -- but here we believe guidance in embouchure development can be achieved musically, or using musical means. Other discussions on that subject in previous threads (if they haven't been erased).

Regarding air aides, the bag and "little ball thingy" I like though don't use that often (been meaning to, but...) Sometimes, before playing, I'll sit straight and take several nice deep breaths, dropping the air "to the basement" as my teacher says. Then, I'll try to get the same "fill" as fast as I can, maybe 3 - 5 times in a row (too many and I get dizzy). I usually follow with a bit of mpc buzzing to start my warmup. This helps get everything going in a more continuous fashion (vs. blowing the bag, then picking up the horn).

As for when to use them, it varies. You can do breath exercises most anytime. I don't find it makes my trumpet feel "tight" as I am mentally prepared for the change (a 1" tube takes a lot more air than a leadpipe less than 1/2" in diameter, after all). If it's a problem, do the exercises another time! I sometimes use the bag or ball during practice when I find myself not breathing enough, deeply enough, to play well. It helps "reset" my mind -- when I practice, I tend to fight through the phrase/song with way too little "fuel" (air), trying to reach the end when I should really just stop, breath, and restart.

I'll try to think a bit more about it, but hopefully this is a start... - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[trumpetfox1234]

For a general answer to most of these questions, you might want to look at Frederiksen's Song and Wind book about Arnold Jacobs if you haven't already.
_________________
Michael I. Goode
Author
Stage Fright in Music Performance and Its Relationship to the Unconscious, 2nd ed.
Assistant Principal/Third Trumpet
Ravinia Festival Orchestra
www.trumpetworkspress.com

[no_tone]

Lurker,

In the past I've used the bag for "breath building type" physical exercises to increase capacity and efficiency focusing mostly on mechanics. But recently I've taken a different approach.

Now I "play" the bag and imagine that I'm playing the trumpet. Not buzzing, but with air patterns. I place the bag opening in my mouth but in front of my teeth. As I'm playing (blowing into ) the bag (lets say I'm working on Pictures promenade) I'm focusing my thoughts on a beautiful trumpet sound and all of the mental images that I associate with that excerpt. The bag offers much less resistance than the trumpet so I have to inhale much more often.

I think its very important to focus on the mental, or imagination side even when working on breathing. Your body will remember what it is like to blow into to bag. It will remember how to move a thick column air in a relaxed manner. Sure, I may notice the bag inflating , but my primary thought is still on the imaginary sound.

After I "play the bag" a few times I pick up my trumpet and imagine that I'm still playing the bag as I play the horn. If I'm still keeping my thoughts focused on the mental trumpet, my body will remember how easily it moved the air when I was playing the bag.

For me this process is about fooling my body. Convincing it that playing the trumpet isn't much harder than playing the bag. But I think the key here is still keeping your thoughts on the imaginary trumpet as you play (the horn or the bag), not on the feel.

I hope this convoluted babble helps.
-Steve

[allstarbugler]

I know of only one player in my life who uses the "breath builder" and he is a consistant and powerful player. Problem is he's consistantly too loud and often out of tune.

"Lots of players can hit a high C and play very rapidly and are still useless when it comes to ensemble playing." - Del Staigers