The only way to settle the argument about tongue level and a

[John Mohan]

The only way to settle the argument about tongue level and air speed would be to set up another Fluoroscope (x-ray) study similar to the one done in the '60's at North Texas State and the one done by Claude Gordon in the '80's.

I personally have knowledge of the CG one, but I don't know who has the actually material created - perhaps Dr. Larry Miller or Loma Linda University. I realize that the proponents of the idea that you can change registers on a trumpet without changing your tongue level will not take my word for it, but the fact is, nobody was able to do so in either of those studies (where tongue level can clearly be seen on the fluoroscope).

The change in tongue level is very subtle and often minute, and as such, many players don't even notice it. But when displayed visually, in both studies done (the only ones ever done to my knowledge), even the most hardy and stubborn players involved saw that they were wrong and that their tongue levels indeed had to change in order for them to ascend or descend more than a few steps in either direction.

I am not interested in any "on-line debates" or arguments over this matter - it would be pointless.

What I am interested in, is working in conjunction with others such as Charlie Raymond ("Bugleboy"), Dave Bacon, Daniel Flores, Lee Adams, Jeff Lambardino, and creating a NEW fluoroscope research experiment that would show what actually goes on in trumpet player’s mouths as they play from lower notes to higher notes and vice-versa.

Perhaps this could be done in cooperation with the ITG with results published there. It would be mandatory that participants from “both camps” be included in this study, so that later, there would not be anyone trying to argue that the participants had a specific outcome pre-planned.

The problems are money and logistics. Renting time on a Fluoroscope machine would not be cheap I’m sure. And the logistics of getting a large group of us together from different points around the world would certainly be difficult.

But the results should be quite valuable. I am particularly interested in seeing what the “SuperChops” players look like on a Fluoroscope. Do they really tongue the way they say they do? Do all of them? A comparison of tongue level between more advanced players and lesser players would be interesting as well. Do I really use my tongue the way I say I do? Does Charlie? Inquiring minds would most certainly want to know!

So, anyone else interested?

Sincerely,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[rch-tech]

I think that would be quite interesting as well as a learning experience.

[Lee Adams]

Actually another fluoroscope study will be of little use unless a precise measurement of air speed is monitored simultaneously at or near the fixed aperture of the mouthpiece throat and/or at the point of air exiting directly in front of the lips.

Additionaly bio feed back results of the changes in tension of the facial/embouchure muscles done at the same time as the fluoroscope would be essential if we want to be as fair as possible about what actually goes on while playing.

Over a year ago I did the air velocity/volume experiments with small aneometers placed near the mouthpiece throat entrance in direct contact with the air stream.

In 2000 I did a detailed bio feed back testing of facial/embouchure muscles while playing from low F# to Double high C including small interval slurs and lip trills.

It will take me a few days to find time to present the results here in the forum but I shall return.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429

Lee Adams


[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-02-15 09:59 ]

[Chicagoman]

Hey John,
I would be more than happy to participate in your study. I for one completely agree that the tongue does indeed move while we play in different registers. However, my particular way of playing puts no real deliberate emphasis on the tongue's movement. When we sing phrasing, we always incorporate different vowels like AH, EE, OH, etc,.. and the tongue definitely moves. It would be interesting to know where my tongue and all that is really going, because I've never really thought about it. Money is going to be a problem, and then getting everyone to agree on doing this is another. I guess we'll just see what happens.

Good talking to you again,

Chicagoman

[dales]

See the biography here for a mention of a "Videoflurographic Study of the Teeth Aperture, Instrument Pivot and Tongue Arch and Their Influence on Trumpet Performance" done by a University of South Carolina trumpet professor who was at North Texas State in the 1960s: http://www.music.sc.edu/fs/amstutz/

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:04 ]

[_bugleboy]

[quote]
On 2002-02-15 09:50, Lee Adams wrote:
Actually another fluoroscope study will be of little use unless a precise measurement of air speed is monitored simultaneously at or near the fixed aperture of the mouthpiece throat and/or at the point of air exiting directly in front of the lips.

Additionaly bio feed back results of the changes in tension of the facial/embouchure muscles done at the same time as the fluoroscope would be essential if we want to be as fair as possible about what actually goes on while playing.

Over a year ago I did the air velocity/volume experiments with small aneometers placed near the mouthpiece throat entrance in direct contact with the air stream.

In 2000 I did a detailed bio feed back testing of facial/embouchure muscles while playing from low F# to Double high C including small interval slurs and lip trills.

It will take me a few days to find time to present the results here in the forum but I shall return.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429

Lee Adams


Lee,

NOW this thread is starting to sound scientific. Excellent suggestions on how to make any new fluoroscopic study be truly meaningful. We'll all be watching for the results of the scientific experiments that you participated in last year and in 2000. Science doesn't lie but there are plenty of those with an agenda who don't present all the facts, or don't seek all the facts that might refute their position. Good post in keeping this issue clear and on target.

Regards,

Charly

[John Mohan]

[John Mohan]

[mcstock]

A brief segment of the fluoroscopic study John Haynie did at North Texas is included in Fred Sautter's instructional video, "Sound the Trumpet."

Best wishes,
Matt Stock

[Lex Grantham]

Interestingly enough, I was among those in the fluoroscope study conducted by John Haynie at North Texas State University during the summer of 1964 (I believe it was).

Mr. Haynie was teaching a brass pedagogy class that summer semester, and there were 12-20 of us who were his students. He was friends with a radiologist in Denton, Texas, and the doctor was also a trumpet player. Over dinner one evening with their wives, the two gentlemen got into a discussion about trumpet...just how do certain things occur when playing the instrument?

I do not know if it was Haynie's idea or the radiologist's, but it was suggested that the class could come down to the clinic one evening, and we would ALL find out something about the internal position of the teeth alignments, tongue positions, etc when ascending the registers by using the flouroscope.

The flouroscopic session eventually turned into more research for Mr. Haynie, as I believe he was able to receive some grant money from somewhere in Texas (and/or other) for administering his project.

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

[dbacon]

DB

[John Mohan]

[Lee Adams]

[_bugleboy]

Lee,

As usual, you have brought new light to this topic.

"Over two years ago I did an analysis of the interconnectivity of the muscles, fiber, and tissues under the tongue. And in the three typical embouchure formations Smile, Pucker, Super Chops style, all three have simultaneous usages of those muscles,fibers, tissues under the tongue which causes the tongue to rise while ascending.
The interconnectivity is directly linked to the required changes in the facial/embouchure muscles while ascending."

I have suspected a relationship of this nature between the tongue and the facial muscles but have not had the time to research it. You have brought us all some great physiological info that should clarify the issues somewhat about the tongue and the embouchure. The issue, AISI (as I see it) is this. Due to the interconnectivity of the muscles in the face and tongue,

1. Does the tongue rise due to increased tension in the facial muscles while ascending, or
2. Does raising the tongue (or consciously reshaping it in some fashion) cause the facial muscles to increase their tension, thus causing pitch to rise.

Since we all seem to agree (I think) that the lips MUST undergo a change of some nature (this should be another topic, i.e., exactly what kind of changes occur in the lips, if in fact there ARE changes) in order to allow for a rise in pitch, it would seem more reasonable to me that the focus should be on the muscles that would most directly influence this change in the lips, namely the facial muscles. So my position would remain as it always has, that the assumed changes that occur in the lips that cause the pitch to increase are directly a result of facial muscle flexing. The tongue, due to the fact that it is interconnected by muscle tissue, reacts to this flexing and most assuredly changes its shape and position. But this tongue movement is a reaction and not a cause. And as I have said in the past (old forum), the tongue is just along for the ride.

This position will, of course, be challenged by those that believe the tongue plays a proactive role in pitch change. But, perhaps the debate may be more focused now, thanks to your scientific post establishing this muscular interconnectivity.

Regards,

Charly

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:04 ]

[Lee Adams]

[Jim]

These are all great ideas for study. It should be noted, however, that science CAN be misleading when subjected to human interpretation and bias. Physicians and researchers such as myself who regularly read scientific and professional journals realize that scientific research adds clarity to topics characterized by myriad variables and is authoritative relative to topics which have few variables. Upper-register performance certainly falls into the former of the above-noted categories. Therefore, I am dubious that an autonomous study would completely clarify this issue since we all know there are numerous contributing factors which allow good high-note capability. Ideally all of the known "fundamentals" to upper-register playing should be studied and evaluated via RCT's(randomized controlled trials); then the results should be published in peer-reviewed journals for comments and critical appraisal. No single study will give us all the answers we are seeking. It is through this process that we will gain further knowledge of how we do what we do on our trumpets. Just my thooughts, Jim

[Jeff Lambardino]

Jim
I see what you are saying however the upper register and doing clinical trials of theories as you have suggested is not the issue here as significantly as is the actual topic of AIR SPEED and the importance of or lack of importance of the tongue in acheiving AIR SPEED.
Im very glad that people like Lee Adams continue tp break new ground at researching and offering scientifically based analysis of the different components involved in playing the trumpet.
Those efforts can help us in teaching better in the future and actually assimilating an intelligent approach to base further testing on.
Lee keep up the good work and thank you for taking the time to share with us.


Jeff Lambardino




[ This Message was edited by: Jeff Lambardino on 2002-02-23 09:48 ]

[William Bentley]