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IamaPepper
New Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2020
Posts: 4
Location: League City, Texas
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 Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:16 pm Post subject: Year of silver Selmer/Bundy cornet? |
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Hello,
I recently bought a silver H. and A. Selmer Inc./Bundy cornet and I am trying to determine the age of the instrument. The dealer could not find a match for the low serial number, 2613, and I haven't either. The dealer thought it was late 1930s to early 1940s, but I thought the short, shepherd's crook cornets were largely out of style by then. The unusual feature is that there is no water key on the third-valve slide, which I have only seen on older instruments.
It is a great playing horn and the sliver plate is in very good condition. Below is the original Ebay listing with images. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Selmer-Bundy-Cornet-with-Unusual-Ornate-Silver-Plate-SN-2613-BEAUTIFUL/333660808648?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Lee |
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arthurtwoshedsjackson
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Joined: 20 Aug 2020
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Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8335
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| arthurtwoshedsjackson wrote: | Last entry.  |
I'll quote myself, here...
| Crazy Finn wrote: | There is not a serial number - date list for Bundy brass instruments. The Bach serial list does not apply. The Bundy saxes and woodwinds might get a clue from the Bundy/Buescher lists, but there is no list for the brasses. The series start, stop, add a letter, change a letter, reset, etc. There is no way to accurately date a Bundy brass instrument from the serial.
Many have asked, many times. People have even written to Bach/Selmer and the answer they have gotten is that there are no records.
So, the sad news is you'll likely never know definitively the date. The good news is, it really doesn't matter as it has no discernible impact on the value or the collectibility.
The Bundy trumpet is a student level instrument - not particularly rare, or collectible. It's not a bad instrument to start out a beginner on, and may be better made and play better than some current models (or maybe not, it's hard to say). There are a fair number of them out there as they were produced in great numbers in the 50-70's. It's a solid student instrument, and if in good condition, would sell for between $100-250 or so in my area. |
This pretty much applies to the thousands of student Bundy cornets and trumpets made mostly in the 60's and 70's.
That is a pretty unusual instrument.
I think Bundy was primarily a stencil company for a number of year - at least for the non-clarinet (maybe flutes, too) at this point - meaning that other companies built their trumpets and saxophones - for example. Conn built many of the Bundy saxophones of the 20-30's era. It's a little harder to identify the brass ones, though, often it's Buescher.
There are some older catalogs linked on Horn-U-Copia. I linked a Bundy one from 1939 and a Buescher one from the same year.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5-_7UCbLfDqc3ltb3ZLbVNsV2c/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5-_7UCbLfDqdUdyZ0xCb181YVU/view
As you can see there are similarities. Your Bundy cornet isn't the same as in the catalog, that's more common "long" cornet. However, the trumpet and cornets are all similar to some of the Buescher ones.
Also, your cornet looks a bit like the Buescher 400 cornet. Food for thought...
I think your dealer is correct, that it's probably from the 30's, maybe pre-war 40's. But, it's hard to know.
You are right, the short model cornets weren't as common and were never in favor much in America. However, Buescher did produce one - the "400" model which has some similarities. However, it lacks the very distinctive flared valve casings that that Buescher model has (I actually have one, though it's a work in progress). Buescher also made valve casings that weren't flared for their other models, so it's possible that this Bundy made with parts from both models. Or, it's possible it was made by someone else - maybe French.
Anyway, it's an interesting horn. Usually, these Bundy questions aren't interesting, but this one is! That's one great looking instrument.
Have you played it?
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Bflatman
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Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Selmer instrument are pretty much impossible to date because there were 3 companies with mixed history. one in Paris one in London and one in the USA
This is some of the historical information I have access to relating to the Selmer USA history and to this instrument model.
1909 Alexandre Selmer opens a music store at #150 East 86th
St. in NYC with George Bundy (1885-1951) as assistant
1910 Bundy is left in charge of the store as Selmer returns to
France
1919 The NY store is purchased by George & J. J.
Bundy and incorporated as H&A Selmer Inc.
1939 H&A Selmer offers the Bundy model
The prominence of the Bundy name suggests this instrument is a 1939 or later Bundy model, the rich engraving and general design suggests an earlier instrument built between 1910 and 1940 but there can be no confirmation on this.
I would assume it to be a professional grade instrument based on the design cues and the richness of the engraving.
That is all I have.
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Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
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Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8335
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Bflatman wrote: | | Selmer instrument are pretty much impossible to date because there were 3 companies with mixed history. one in Paris one in London and one in the USA. |
Selmer in a nutshell:
Selmer-Paris. Company started by Selmer brothers to make mouthpiece and instruments. It's known for these same excellent mouthpieces, clarinets - eventually famous saxophones. I miss their trumpets. In some or most ways, the only Selmer that matters. After all, if you're buying a wind instrument or mouthpiece, you want it to be a Selmer-Paris, rather than the other Selmers.
The other "Selmer" companies got started as distributors for Selmer-Paris.
Selmer-London. Some manufacturing, but in terms of band instruments, they were mostly sourced from elsewhere and stenciled Selmer UK. If you care about Guitars and amps, it might be relevant, but not super important otherwise.
Selmer USA. Sold by Alexandre Selmer to George Bundy. Eventually, through mergers and acquisitions, they now are part of a corporate conglomerate that owns Bach, King, Conn (and Steinway) and most of the other American legacy band brands. They made Bundy instruments, back in the day. However, all of their top end instruments are made under other makes - like Bach or Conn. The "Selmer" branded stuff is intermediate-student grade woodwinds.
While Selmer UK and Selmer USA are distributors for Selmer-Paris, that's the extent of their current relationship.
The reason Selmer USA and Bundy brass instruments are hard to date is that they were often stenciled by others and they didn't keep records of serial numbers for them.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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IamaPepper
New Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2020
Posts: 4
Location: League City, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Hello. Thanks everyone for the information. I do appreciate it. I thought it might be a Buescher based on my research, but I was not sure.
I think I did pretty well with this purchase. I am coming back to playing after several decades and initially restarted with a Blessing Scholastic long wrap from the late 1970s that I had purchased.
My instructor is also pleased with the cornet and its sound and considers it a good step up from what I have been playing. It does well with my V-shaped Denis Wick Heritage 4B mouthpiece to give the horn a more "cornet" sound.
Lee |
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VetPsychWars
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| IamaPepper wrote: | Hello. Thanks everyone for the information. I do appreciate it. I thought it might be a Buescher based on my research, but I was not sure.
I think I did pretty well with this purchase. I am coming back to playing after several decades and initially restarted with a Blessing Scholastic long wrap from the late 1970s that I had purchased.
My instructor is also pleased with the cornet and its sound and considers it a good step up from what I have been playing. It does well with my V-shaped Denis Wick Heritage 4B mouthpiece to give the horn a more "cornet" sound.
Lee |
Not a Buescher.
Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
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