Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:36 pm Post subject: Horn Type and Compression per Type
Hi All,
Just wondering if Doc or anyone ever found any correlation between small/med/med. large/large bore and Type (3A, #B, 4A...etc).
My guess is that it is a very individual thing...but...not always?
It seems like to me , for some reason, 4's tend to gravitate towards horns that have compression later in the horn or larger horns. This may be a coincidence as I only known a few true 4's in my life so I can't write that off. But I am very curious.
Also...does it matter where in the horn the compression is to different types? In other words....does say a Type 3A tend to like compression closer to them or later in the horn? Or again...is that all personal taste?
If there are tendencies....can anyone tell me why?
I find this really interesting and have always wondered about it.
I think it's way too complicated to make any sought of deductions like that.
Bore size is a pretty small piece of the puzzle. Leadpipe venturi and taper, and the bell flare have a lot of effect on how a trumpet feels. As can the amount of metal. For example, I have a .462 bore C trumpet that feel more open than my .470 bore trumpet, probably because of the bell flare on the .462. I've also tried an Ingram 1600i that is apparently a tight-ish bore, but which didn't feel restrictive at all.
Then the mouthpiece is also a big factor. Some people use an open mouthpiece with an open trumpet, some use a tight mouthpiece with a tight trumpet, some mix it up.
In my opinion/experience, the main effect of changing resistance is how much lip adjusting is involved in playing. Counterintuitively, for me, on a free blowing instrument and mouthpiece, I feel like I hardly have to do anything with my face to play. It's just tongue and air and maybe some jaw movement. The more resistance I add, the more I feel like the lips are the main thing controlling the pitch.
For people who play Bach 37s with standard Bach mouthpieces, I think they're looking for that same control feeling you get when mouthpiece buzzing, which is basically, it's all lip adjustment. Which is why so many classical player mouthpiece buzz a lot, because the control feels basically the same.
But with an open horn and mouthpiece, I don't feel the control the same way, it really feels much more like whistling except your lips aren't pooched out like that. Tongue and air.
If you go for something in the middle, then you kinda end up feeling like there's an extra variable involved you're having to adjust and co-ordinate air, tongue arch and lips. When there's a lot of resistance, you kinda ignore the tongue, when there's little resistance, you can kinda ignore the lips.
I'm not sure if that's helpful or even anyone else's experience, but that's what I've found.
Thanks everyone!
I actually agree that it is more complicated than bore size. I guess what i was really getting at was resistance and compression.
Mike, Chris is a 3B and so is B-Mac and I think so is Danny Falcone. They all tend toward a more efficient set up. For instance...they would all pick a 36B Conn over the 38B. I guess I was just wondering if that seemed to be more widespread or the norm or if Doc had ever noted or notated anything about that.
I think it may have to do with feel as much as actual size, like Nurture said.
I do wonder however, if certain types tend to favor a certain type of feel?
Most 3A's (in my experience) tend to gravitate towards bigger horns I think. I do (at least as far as feel) and I am a 3A. Arturo is a 3A I think and he likes big equipment.
Nurture... just curious...what are you type wise? 3A, 3B, 4A..etc?
I really doubt there is a rule. What type is bobby shew supposed to be again? I think IIIA. The Shew is what most would consider a 'tight' horn.
I think there is probably some truth to what you are getting at. I also think open equipment. I've read on here that Reinhardt used to believe IIIBs should play the smallest mouthpieces If anything, I'd probably say that if you are someone with a switchable type, that sufficiently extreme equipment would probably encourage you to play more towards one or the other. I think more open equipment encourages me to play as a IIIA. If it gets too resistant, I think my horn angle and jaw position changes, and I end up as a IIIB. I can be sure, as that's just my guess, and not a reinhardt person typing me. Mostly I just ignore it anyway. One feels better to me though. *Shrugs*
Thanks everyone!
I actually agree that it is more complicated than bore size. I guess what i was really getting at was resistance and compression.
Mike, Chris is a 3B and so is B-Mac and I think so is Danny Falcone. They all tend toward a more efficient set up. For instance...they would all pick a 36B Conn over the 38B. I guess I was just wondering if that seemed to be more widespread or the norm or if Doc had ever noted or notated anything about that.
I think it may have to do with feel as much as actual size, like Nurture said.
I do wonder however, if certain types tend to favor a certain type of feel?
Most 3A's (in my experience) tend to gravitate towards bigger horns I think. I do (at least as far as feel) and I am a 3A. Arturo is a 3A I think and he likes big equipment.
Nurture... just curious...what are you type wise? 3A, 3B, 4A..etc?
Thanks all,
Johnny
Johnny,
I'm far from an authority on the subject, but if I can, Chris LaBarbera plays a Conn 60B. I previously owned one of these horns. Really amazing trumpets. Sleepers. But they are super super efficient and much tighter than a 38B. Chris' recording of the Harry James concerto was made on one of his 60B's - he told me this in a lesson. (see below).
I have always thought I was wrong, because the general movement of trumpet playing is OPEN AND FREE, but I have ALWAYS played better on tighter horns. Always. I now just embrace that as something I have learned about myself. Not like I ever wanted a Wild Thing, or that Kool Aid, but I know why I don't - that just doesn't work for me!!
(Upfront: I'm FAR from any kind of expert around here, I just happen to find more useful tidbits that work with my pre-existing way of playing and way of approaching and thinking about progress on this particular sub-board than any other so I've read through a lot of old threads)...
Oh, and I'm gonna be speculating - this isn't a good recipe for trustworthy information, is it?
In that vein, the following may be utter rubbish...
I suppose it's likely that stereotypes about the types exist for a reason - so is it not also possible that the best players out there (since we've dipped into famous names already on this thread) have found ways to work well within their natural types? And that that might include gear choices?
In the case of 3B's (for example) one of the biggest pitfalls I've seen mentioned time and again is referred to as "falling in love with the sound" - lacking the restraint to resist overblowing and making huge, unnecessarily loud notes in the staff and a little above, preventing the upper register from ever really functioning properly as it should...
So perhaps the efficient gear mentioned is something of a brake on that tendency - by using gear with more noticeable boundaries, the player is more aware when they're trying to force more down the horn than they should and this encourages them to back off before they reach the point that they do (as much) damage?
It could be that some choose their gear deliberately for this sort of reason... it could also simply be that those that come to that gear on their own tend to be the ones that never encounter that pitfall as much in the first place, so maybe we'd expect to see more of them among the most successful examples?
I guess there are lots of questions you could ask...
Are there equipment tendencies that each type would choose to arrive at? No idea.
Are there equipment choices that might be advisable for each type? No idea - it makes a kind of sense to me, but I'm not in a position to provide a positive answer.
Are there equipment choices that might be inadvisable for each type?
Is there even any correlation between type and equipment choice at all - either broadly or in the fine detail asked about in the opening post?
And perhaps the more controversial one:
Would Doc himself necessarily have had the answer to this?
My impression from reading old posts (particularly one by, I think?, Chris?) was that Reinhardt gave excellent advice on trombone related equipment but perhaps not so much for trumpet related equipment? (Please let me know if I've got this wrong and I'll remove it!)
First ...thanks to everyone for answering.
It was just something I have been curious about and noticed with a few of the guys I know and have and had played with.
In regards to Bobby......he has a lung condition, so I am not sure that his situation really is the same as the norm. And truthfully...maybe there isn't a "Norm". I guess it just made to sense to me that because of certain physical attributes, maybe a IV might tend to like something different than a 3B or 3A. And...also that a 3A might like something a little different than a 3B.
TKsop...what you said made sense to me. I think maybe well developed players use their equipment to help keep them from falling into traps that are natural to them specifically and maybe to their types as well.
Mike...I now from hangin with Chris and playing with him that he is super efficient and doesn't lean towards equipment that is too big. We talked about that a long time ago. A perfect example he brought up was the King "Silver Flair" if I remember right. He said that when you first play one it just feels like a million dollars but that it kind of wore you down because of the size and blow after a while. He wasn't saying it was a bad horn in any way...just saying that he felt like he fell into it after awhile. The set up on his CAROL isn't really tight but it definitely has resistance. I find that as I get older, I am getting more efficient and tending towards slightly tighter gear than I did when I was younger and a little more (too much actually) muscle bound. lol
Any...thanks all for the comment and opinions! I love it when there are no flamers and trolls!!!!!
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject:
I think this thread poses a great question, in that a definitive answer could point many in a successful direction regarding gear.
I can only offer my data point of one. When I play well, practicing a lot, I'm a 3A. When life interferes, the first thing to go is my 3A jaw position, and I tend to play like a 3B.
When I play well I literally feel resistance in only two places: the air support region of gut / diaphragm / knees to solar plexus, and the BELL. Nothing in between! At worst, I have resistance in my throat.
I like a pretty open horn, balanced by a mpc on the tight side. A tight horn with an open mpc is an enviable setup, but I haven't been able to get it to work as well for me.
I think this thread poses a great question, in that a definitive answer could point many in a successful direction regarding gear.
I can only offer my data point of one. When I play well, practicing a lot, I'm a 3A. When life interferes, the first thing to go is my 3A jaw position, and I tend to play like a 3B.
When I play well I literally feel resistance in only two places: the air support region of gut / diaphragm / knees to solar plexus, and the BELL. Nothing in between! At worst, I have resistance in my throat.
I like a pretty open horn, balanced by a mpc on the tight side. A tight horn with an open mpc is an enviable setup, but I haven't been able to get it to work as well for me.
Just by way of trying to understand a little of how it feels or the physicality of a different embouchure setup, I have figured out how to produce notes as a IV and IIIA. I don't spend any time on this, but my curiosity led me to learn. The way you describe IIIA is how it feels to me. Totally foreign to my experience as a IIIB.
As for gear, I play the 7ESV/1 still, but have downsized to 9M/NY for combo & most usual work. I have bigger gear if I need it, which I rarely do. The 9M is interesting. It has quite a shallow M cup. Probably the shallowest of the Warburton system, that I have seen.
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 1104 Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:57 pm Post subject:
I'm a 3A, and always like the smaller pieces with a ML to a larger bore horn......lightweight horns especially.... but as far as perceived resistance goes, I like it right at the mouthpiece...maybe even right on the buzzing points of my chops.... I don't want to feel anything further down the horn at all. I have played horns where I feel this resistance in various places, and to ME, it's as if they don't "speak" immediately when I blow. It's a response thing I guess. _________________ http://www.JMB-MUSIC.COM http://gregblackmouthpieces.com/personal.htm
First ...thanks to everyone for answering.
It was just something I have been curious about and noticed with a few of the guys I know and have and had played with.
In regards to Bobby......he has a lung condition, so I am not sure that his situation really is the same as the norm. And truthfully...maybe there isn't a "Norm". I guess it just made to sense to me that because of certain physical attributes, maybe a IV might tend to like something different than a 3B or 3A. And...also that a 3A might like something a little different than a 3B.
TKsop...what you said made sense to me. I think maybe well developed players use their equipment to help keep them from falling into traps that are natural to them specifically and maybe to their types as well.
Mike...I now from hangin with Chris and playing with him that he is super efficient and doesn't lean towards equipment that is too big. We talked about that a long time ago. A perfect example he brought up was the King "Silver Flair" if I remember right. He said that when you first play one it just feels like a million dollars but that it kind of wore you down because of the size and blow after a while. He wasn't saying it was a bad horn in any way...just saying that he felt like he fell into it after awhile. The set up on his CAROL isn't really tight but it definitely has resistance. I find that as I get older, I am getting more efficient and tending towards slightly tighter gear than I did when I was younger and a little more (too much actually) muscle bound. lol
Any...thanks all for the comment and opinions! I love it when there are no flamers and trolls!!!!!
Aha! Stumbling upon this thread right now finding lots of interesting views.
Might explain some of my own recent findings. I think I´m a IIIa or IIIb. Always used a Bach (1970) 1 1/4 up to a certain point (even for lead), on my King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970) then began fiddling with new mouthpieces; a year ago I bought a Bach 190LT 1B Commercial not only in mint condition but indistinguishable from a brand new. A fantastic horn, brilliant, supereasy to play, lightning fast valves then let my dealer do a "deliverance overhaul" some weeks ago and had to re-assemble my old King. And what did I find? Suddenly accuracy, precision, slotting, range - everything got boosted. Then I had my Getzen 3850 cornet thoroughly overhauled - in the meantime using my recently bought Yamaha 2330 cornet, cheap student horn - whereupon same scenario took place- although to a much less extent. Which made me remember how I was utterly non-capable to play the new V Bach Stradivarius cornet I bought 1994 (while in Washington). Never understood why - but reading this thread I get the idea that it´s about resistance/compression - maybe I´m not suited to play more free blowing horns? (The King is far from being stuffy, the Yamaha a bit stuffy - but I play "good enough" on the 3850)
Intermediate variables taking lessons, deep in the BE since 2 years, getting older - 75).
I´ve used to think that this was some kind of a failure on my behalf, not being able to fill these free blowing horns Rather this is my "nature"?! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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