Straight-thru valves: does it matter ?

pinstriper

So I'm a comeback player and don't really know much about much. Playing T-4 in a community big band, and we have 3 or 4 songs that say "flugel optional", and I'm like "sure, sounds like more fun than picking which mute to use".

So I picked up one of those $200 Chinese disposable flugels, just because. And it's OK, but I think there are intonation issues beyond...well...me. There, I said it. Durability wasn't an issue - I bought it because I...well, because at that price it didn't really matter, it was worth the risk. And it's fine for what I'm doing with it now.

But I'm already starting to hanker for a better horn for the few times I'll play it, and I'm pretty clear that I can't justify more than about $600-800. I can afford more, I just can't justify it.

The above stated just to be transparent about my point of view.

And I'm looking at these used Getzen's, and I see their "straight through valve" configuration, and I'm wondering if that's hype, or if there's a real benefit ? The used ones are certainly in my price range (in which case the Chinese horn would go to a school/youth program).

I'm also thinking about the Austin doubler, or pouncing on a used Yamaha if presented with the right opportunity. Which, I'm not really asking about those comparatively, just wondering if the Getzen valve config is BS or not.

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:50 pm Post subject:

It seems to be pretty common in flugels, but I can't for the life of me figure out why. I guess it's because people like their flugel sound funky and uncentred. Yes, it's better when all the valves are up, because the tube goes straight through. One valve down is OK. Two valves down is mediocre. All three is garbage. It seems less problematic than if you did this on a trumpet, but there is a reason you have never seen a trumpet that has this.

As an added bonus, some makers don't stamp valve numbers on the pistons, and they all look exactly the same. Super!

I've not played a Getzen flugel (although I have played other flugels with this "feature") but I have heard bad things. Obviously there are people who like this configuration, but I would just try before you buy. Maybe it won't bug you.
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Richard Sandals
NBO

VetPsychWars · Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:32 pm Post subject:

My working hypothesis at this point is that people like the sound of French flugels, except they suck to play.

German flugels are easy to play but no one knows what they sound like.

I know this is weak, but my high school owned Noblet flugels and they were no harder to play then my grandfather's trumpet.

I personally don't think a flugel should sound fluffy, nor a cornet, but there are people who do.

As for any "straight through" kinda thing, it's a resonant system, you could tie it in a knot, it wouldn't matter.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

pinstriper · Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject:

OK, so I'm hearing this called "Horsefeathers", at least as far as falling in love with it for no other reason than it kinda looks neat and appeals to the orthogonally minded. Whatever effect it has on the playing, or the sound, which might be non-zero and therefore, real, is negligent compared to the effect on the mind of the buyer.

VetPsychWars · Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:20 pm Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:14 pm Post subject:

Hi

I'm probably being thick, but I don't really understand.

I have only owned one flugel, my Bach 183.

The lead pipe and tubes through the valves are in a straight line, and when cleaning, you can clean straight through.

How please does this differ from the Getzen flugels, or does my flugel horn also have this feature?

Many Thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:52 am Post subject:

Lou --

I believe the Bach shares that particular "feature."
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Richard Sandals
NBO

ChopsGone · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793

In newer designs, the Phaeton flugelhorn also has the straight-through flow. It's actually a very nice horn for the price.
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Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
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cheiden · Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:26 pm Post subject:

The only "valve configurations" commonly used for flugels refers to either those with horizontal tubes (like a trumpet) or those with vertical tubes. I believe this relates to valves that are "top sprung" or "bottom sprung" respectively, but I don't think it's synonymous. "Student" horns often have the horizontal tubes like a trumpet and most pro horns have vertical tubes. The Getzen Capri (economy model) is horizontal and the Getzen Eterna (pro model) is vertical.

In my limited experience the the horizontal configuration plays a little more trumpet like making it an easier transition but the sound isn't quite as satisfying.

I'm seeing a little about some horns with "unique direct airflow design through the valve casings" but I'm not sure that's a particularly important detail particularly in a cost effective horn.

Here's a good source for info on pro (not intermediate or student) flugels.
http://www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/Flugelhorn%20Guide.html

Also check out he Dillon horns for economical new horns that get routinely positive reviews.
http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-774-dillon-flugel-horns.aspx
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

Bill Blackwell

VetPsychWars · Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:00 pm Post subject:

Bill? .460 bore flugel that will kick the butt of most:

Oh no! Straight valve slides!

Please beware, people stumble across wildly wonderful vintage instruments you've never heard of.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

pinstriper

pinstriper · Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject:

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject:

pinstriper · Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject:

Bill Blackwell · Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:09 pm Post subject:

Bill Blackwell

Dan O'Donnell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 2287

My Besson Brevete Flugelhorn and 925 Flugelhorn w/ Copper Bell (both manufactured by Kanstul) has the straight through valve configuration and they are the best playing and sounding Flugelhorns I have ever played after play testing MANY over (30)+ years.

It is also important to note that Kanstul's 1525...that many pros believe is THE Flugelhorn...also has the straight through valve configuration.

Based on the (3) data points above; I can only assume the straight through valve configurations has an impact...exactly on what (playability and/or sound) I'm not smart enough to know however, it is interesting how all (3) of these great horns make use of this configuration...

_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

cheiden

Louise Finch · Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: