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rockford
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 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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We seem to be in an either/or mode here, but there's no reason to not do both. Out of the successful people in this thread Pat is a teacher that actively performs and Richard is an active performer that teaches. Both are important parts of earning a living in this highly specialized endeavor.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
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MetricTrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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I don't mean to high jack this thread but I'm in similar situation to the OP and figured there was no point in starting a new thread. My dream is to be a professional musician and do some composing/arranging on the side.
My parents think music is not a safe career choice (which I understand) and want me to major in music education which they view as a safer option. I have no intention of teaching high school but my parents are helping me pay for college so I'm pretty much forced to do what they want.
Will I be at a disadvantage compared to performance majors? Will I miss any opportunities due to me majoring in education? |
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danambro8
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | | danambro8 wrote: | | There are plenty of talented, hard working musicians that actually WANT to be teachers. |
The other misunderstanding aside, who cares? Why does it matter one whit what people want to do? What matters is whether or not they can.
As well, just because something is Plan B doesn't mean you don't want to do it. And we all need to eat, what makes teaching so special that unless it's your sole purpose in life you're not allowed to do it -- no matter how good you are -- if you ever wanted to do anything else. Isn't it possible for somebody to love music so much that they will love any job that allows them to stay involved?
I understand that this "those who can't, teach" thing really bugs teachers. I understand that being good at performing and being good at teaching aren't the same. But on what planet are the skills and discipline of trying to become a performer not absolutely beneficial to a potential teacher? And how many teachers who "chose" the profession would still choose it if they woke up tomorrow morning sounding like Phil Smith? |
I had typed a rather lengthy response to this post, but I can't help but get caught up with your first comment. The desire to do one thing or another is the entire purpose of this thread's existence, not to mention the driving force for many of us to pursue anything we do. I can flip burgers all day, but I don't want to. You can teach high school, but you don't want to. Those who both can, and want, to teach should be educators, above those who want and can't and those who don't want, but can... if that makes sense.
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Steve A
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| danambro8 wrote: |
The desire to do one thing or another is the entire purpose of this thread's existence, not to mention the driving force for many of us to pursue anything we do. I can flip burgers all day, but I don't want to. You can teach high school, but you don't want to. Those who both can, and want, to teach should be educators, above those who want and can't and those who don't want, but can... if that makes sense. |
I don't think that anyone is disputing the suggestion that it's better for teachers to possess both the ability and the passion for teaching than one or the other.
But, in a more pragmatic sense, I think it's a bit of an oversimplification to suggest that anyone does any job all the time because they want to, and not out of obligation/practical necessity. |
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PhxHorn
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| MetricTrumpet wrote: | My dream is to be a professional musician and do some composing/arranging on the side.
My parents think music is not a safe career choice (which I understand) and want me to major in music education which they view as a safer option. I have no intention of teaching high school but my parents are helping me pay for college so I'm pretty much forced to do what they want.
Will I be at a disadvantage compared to performance majors? Will I miss any opportunities due to me majoring in education? |
Not necessarily. You'll still take the classical piano classes and trumpet lessons and play in performing ensembles. You can still sign up for electives such as arranging and improvisation and jazz piano. During the last couple of years of your Education degree, you'll spend more and more time on site at schools doing observation and student teaching. At that point, it will have the potential of detracting from your playing time, but only if you let it. You'll still have mornings and evenings to practice, and you might be able to arrange your schedule to accommodate college ensemble rehearsals if you are pro-active about it. If you have the option of doing your student teaching all in one semester, you should consider that, because if you spread it out over an entire school year (teaching half as much for twice as long), the travel and other prep time will more than offset the shorter in-class time.
And there's always the possibility of practicing your ass off during the first year (or even now!) so that you can qualify for a scholarship and then you can call your own shots as to what you major in. I think it's a mistake to let someone push you into a major that you don't want. But having said that, the methods classes in which you learn the other wind/string/percussion instruments are a real eye opener as far as showing you what the other players are dealing with. And you'll be sick at how easy it is to play the sax.
The fact is, what you want to do now might not have a lot to do with what you want to do in 20 years. Youngsters tend to think in terms of "living the dream" and middle aged folks tend to think in terms of paying the bills and having a nice house and a family and putting money aside for retirement. A lot of great players got tired of the road and starting coveting a teaching gig later in life, but they didn't have the academic credentials to get one. Whatever you major in, I'd encourage you to finish your bachelor's degree, because down the road a college degree will open a lot of doors for you, and it's a lot easier to go back and get a masters than it is to finish an unfinished bachelors degree from 20 years ago. |
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danambro8
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | | danambro8 wrote: |
The desire to do one thing or another is the entire purpose of this thread's existence, not to mention the driving force for many of us to pursue anything we do. I can flip burgers all day, but I don't want to. You can teach high school, but you don't want to. Those who both can, and want, to teach should be educators, above those who want and can't and those who don't want, but can... if that makes sense. |
I don't think that anyone is disputing the suggestion that it's better for teachers to possess both the ability and the passion for teaching than one or the other.
But, in a more pragmatic sense, I think it's a bit of an oversimplification to suggest that anyone does any job all the time because they want to, and not out of obligation/practical necessity. |
I agree. I was simply pointing out that, in my opinion, there's a sort of injustice by "falling back" on a teaching gig simply to make ends meet, especially if you don't actually want to teach. You've taken that job from someone who [could be] is equally qualified and has a strong desire to teach. Obviously this point is moot if you're more qualified for the gig than every other applicant - but that's rarely the case; especially now with the pool of applicants so large.
A "fall back" could be any number of skilled jobs. Why rob someone else of their dream career just because you didn't achieve yours? It's wrong in my opinion. That's all.
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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Joined: 25 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Freelance brain surgeon is my fallback. Capt.Kirk has already taken advantage of my services! |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | Freelance brain surgeon is my fallback. Capt.Kirk has already taken advantage of my services! |
Lobotomy?
(Sorry, but it was there. Devil made me do it.)
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Adam V
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Most of the best musicians (musicians, not technicians) out there don't have degrees. It isn't necessary at all. As long as you study with a great teacher, have a lot of drive and a fair amount of natural musical ability, there is no need for a stupid piece of paper.
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Andy Del
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| MetricTrumpet wrote: | My parents think music is not a safe career choice (which I understand) and want me to major in music education which they view as a safer option. I have no intention of teaching high school but my parents are helping me pay for college so I'm pretty much forced to do what they want.
Will I be at a disadvantage compared to performance majors? Will I miss any opportunities due to me majoring in education? |
Yes. Absolutely and definitely, ESPECIALLY if you end up teaching. Not so much at college, but out there teaching, you'll be in a rather unfortunate place.
I know a music educator who did exactly the same as you, due to family pressure. Maybe they would have made it in their performance field, but they didn't mainly due to the extra energies they had to put into education during college.
This has lead them to being an educator who, while they can do the job very well, carries a HUGE chip on their shoulders and have let this poison so much they do with regard to students and colleagues. I am glad I don't have to work with them!
If you have the dream to be a performer, then please go for that. If it doesn't work, you can then go and do education, etc. etc. IF you make that choice and decide to embrace it as a career.
I had to face this crossroad some 15 years ago. Using my musical training and experience to help my teaching has been an extraordinary benefit, but I needed to be comfortable with making the choice to teach. I was, and I think I have not regretted the choice (too much) since.
cheers
Andy
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falado
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:28 am Post subject: |
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There's a caveat, I played for years and enjoyed it. I've also recently seen at lot of performance opportunities disappear. I finished my masters when I was 50 and I do enjoy teaching. That was my retirement plan from the military bands. But again, I enjoy teaching and live to see the light bulb moments.
The dilemma is if you want to play, then play. Teaching band is like having two full time jobs. There are many weekends involved with competitions, football games, parades, etc. I do gig and practice every moment that I can. However, I also have been laid-off twice due to budget cuts. I went back in the military in '82 because all my friends I went to college with in MA lost their band director gigs, budget cuts known as Proposition 2 1/2. So let your parents know that teaching band is not a safe bet. When the budget cuts come you'll be the first out the door. If you do band you'd better build a program so big (bigger than football) that the school can't do without it. That's what the high school band director and I are currently doing. It's a 60-80 hour work week and a huge commitment. Would I rather be gigging and traveling? I do my share in the summer; the rest of the year is school band all the way.
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danambro8
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Adam V wrote: | | Most of the best musicians (musicians, not technicians) out there don't have degrees. It isn't necessary at all. As long as you study with a great teacher, have a lot of drive and a fair amount of natural musical ability, there is no need for a stupid piece of paper. |
While I agree that no one has ever gotten a gig just because he has a degree, I think many people made valid points that college simply provides many, many performance opportunities without fear of failure. Of course one can obtain those opportunities in the "real-world," but I would argue it's more difficult to find.
The problem I found with college, at least ours, is that it coddles performances majors a little bit too much... but that's a minor complaint at best.
As for "natural musical ability:" I think that's BS. It is my belief that any skill can be mastered with enough time and dedication, and that the only "talent" one needs is the ability to prioritize playing trumpet above anything else in his life. If you do that, you'll be great.
...but your still cute 
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cheiden
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Adam V wrote: | | Most of the best musicians (musicians, not technicians) out there don't have degrees. It isn't necessary at all. As long as you study with a great teacher, have a lot of drive and a fair amount of natural musical ability, there is no need for a stupid piece of paper. |
If best means big name recording artists then indeed it's my sense that most don't have degrees. Successful session players I'm guessing that a fair fraction have degrees. But it's my sense that the above only describes a minority of working musicians and that the majority benefit greatly from a broad education.
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Adam V
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| danambro8 wrote: |
While I agree that no one has ever gotten a gig just because he has a degree, I think many people made valid points that college simply provides many, many performance opportunities without fear of failure... |
True.
| Quote: | | The problem I found with college, at least ours, is that it coddles performances majors a little bit too much... |
Also true...
| Quote: | | As for "natural musical ability:" I think that's BS. It is my belief that any skill can be mastered with enough time and dedication, and that the only "talent" one needs is the ability to prioritize playing trumpet above anything else in his life. If you do that, you'll be great. |
This is where we disagree, Dan. I can't think of how many trumpet players (or music majors, in general) at school (not gonna name names) try so hard at getting better at their instrument through diligent practice and countless lessons with top-name players/teachers, yet don't seem to improve as much as one would think. On the other hand, there are some players that drastically improve with just a fraction of the dedication and practice time of the aforementioned players. Ever hear of Warren Luening? The guy rarely ever practiced; he said that during his development as a trumpet player, 90% of the time he had the horn on his face was in a rehearsal or performance. I heard him play with Wayne's big band in Bel Air the day after he had been in the hospital for almost 2 weeks straight, and he sounded INCREDIBLE. That wouldn't be the case for too many players... Every musician that had the pleasure of working with him never hesitated to mention that he was one of the most naturally gifted players they had ever met.
Singers are an even better example--some of them have had naturally amazing voices since they were little kids, and I'm sure they hadn't put their 10,000 hours in yet at that age... There are other singers that practice a great deal and still never have that magic in their voice. I think it's pretty hard to argue that natural talent doesn't exist.
| Quote: | | ...but your still cute |
As are you, my friend.
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danambro8
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Adam V wrote: | This is where we disagree, Dan. I can't think of how many trumpet players (or music majors, in general) at school (not gonna name names) try so hard at getting better at their instrument through diligent practice and countless lessons with top-name players/teachers, yet don't seem to improve as much as one would think. On the other hand, there are some players that drastically improve with just a fraction of the dedication and practice time of the aforementioned players. Ever hear of Warren Luening? The guy rarely ever practiced; he said that during his development as a trumpet player, 90% of the time he had the horn on his face was in a rehearsal or performance. I heard him play with Wayne's big band in Bel Air the day after he had been in the hospital for almost 2 weeks straight, and he sounded INCREDIBLE. That wouldn't be the case for too many players... Every musician that had the pleasure of working with him never hesitated to mention that he was one of the most naturally gifted players they had ever met.
Singers are an even better example--some of them have had naturally amazing voices since they were little kids, and I'm sure they hadn't put their 10,000 hours in yet at that age... There are other singers that practice a great deal and still never have that magic in their voice. I think it's pretty hard to argue that natural talent doesn't exist.
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The singer point is only true because of the very specific timbre required to reproduce Western Art Music (and Jazz for that matter). Everyone can learn how to sing equally well, but obviously how your voice sounds, and how it's judged by your society, is entirely by chance. I do agree that if you were cursed with an "ugly" voice, you have little recourse.
I'll defer to you on the music major side, since you've had more interaction with those folks than I have. I will say, however, that there are many more factors at play than whether or not one is naturally gifted. Misinformation given from well-intentioned educators. Information not being presented in the right way for that student's learning ability. Concerted practice versus non. It's not enough that people practice, but it's how they practice that's much more indicative of how well they'll perform, and the progress they'll make on the horn - as you well may know. You probably also know that some of the best top-name players can cause absolute devastation to a player that was well on his way to greatness. Hell, I know of several cases like that from school, but won't discuss them here.
The whole thing boils down to nature versus nurture, as these conversations always do. Sure, I'll admit that some people are born with more of a proclivity for the instrument than others. Some kids just made the right connections at the right age and pick it up fast. But that can be overcome if a student is presented with developmentally appropriate, and accurate information (think Jerome Bruner if you remember him from your ed classes). I think many people disregard "untalented" students which starts them on a cycle of misdirection that leads them away from the best teachers, schools, and performance opportunities at every stage of their development. Of course these students never make it as musicians, they were never even given a shot.
Malcolm Gladwell discusses this sort of thing at length in his book Outliers.
Also, check out Flow by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi
Actual Minds Possible Worlds by Jerome Bruner
and
Godel, Escher, Bach which is a must read for any musician really.
Jeff Purtle also has a great summation of Gordon's approach to this subject on his site: https://www.purtle.com/jeff-how-to-practice
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percivalthehappyboy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| danambro8 wrote: |
The singer point is only true because of the very specific timbre required to reproduce Western Art Music (and Jazz for that matter). Everyone can learn how to sing equally well, but obviously how your voice sounds, and how it's judged by your society, is entirely by chance. I do agree that if you were cursed with an "ugly" voice, you have little recourse.
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Stuck in a heavy metal band? |
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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I know lots of people that totally sucked when they were in school and have burgeoning careers now, in NYC no less. I mean, they were AWFUL.
Natural talent is not a part of the equation. Is it useful? Sure, but it's not a requisite. Hard work is.
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CurtisCalderon
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Sailors wrote: | I know lots of people that totally sucked when they were in school and have burgeoning careers now, in NYC no less. I mean, they were AWFUL.
Natural talent is not a part of the equation. Is it useful? Sure, but it's not a requisite. Hard work is. |
I'm with Mike on this. I think some guys can work one month and it might take another guy 3 months to get there, but I think if someone is truly willing to put in the time, they can get there. The problem is if you're 35 and living on your own and have a day job, gonna be tough. If you are able to live with your parents and really put in 3-5 hours a day, you are going to be great in a matter of a few years. Sounds silly to say years but I do believe that I could take any student and make them great in a few years and not because I'm a good teacher. I would function as more of a time monitor and make sure they are doing what they are supposed to do and not making excuses for being tired or not having the time to practice. I believe if you put the time in, it will happen. Sure, you could put in 10 hours a day for ten years and never be Wynton or Phillp Smith, but you will be great and you will be able to do it for a living. Again, just my opinion.
Curtis |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Sailors wrote: | | Natural talent is not a part of the equation. Is it useful? Sure, but it's not a requisite. Hard work is. |
And resourcefulness. Not to minimize hard work, but often it is not a matter of what you know, it's how you use what you know.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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rockford
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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A few people are always going to have that "star" capability where greatness comes easy and the rest of us will have to work at it with varying degrees of success. Doesn't seem fair but, either way, someone has to put whatever time is required to get the results.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
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