Carol Pocket Trumpet Valve Issues

[dstdenis]

Since the trumpet is new, I'd guess that the valves might be tight.

I got a new Shires trumpet that has really tight valves. I can't use the regular UltraPure oil with it. When I try that, the valves will work fine at first, but then they start to get sticky after about five minutes of playing as the horn warms up. The oil is just too thick.

I switched to Hetman 1 and the problem went away. Recently I've switched to UltraPure Lite, and it works well also, about as well as Hetman 1. Both products are so thin that they evaporate quickly, and I have to reapply oil frequently to protect the valves. But the valves work great with these thin oils, so I don't mind.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[etc-etc]

Dan,

The residue may be collecting on the felts if the valves are very tight. It does not mean that valves are faulty, they may need some extra time to break in according to your wear pattern. In my experience, this extra time could last as long as 3 to 4 weeks. I would meanwhile continue with Zaja as it seems to work, and use a moist chamois cloth for wiping the casings and the pistons to avoid any lint.

[cyber_shake]

Hi Dan,
I look forward to your response after the oil 'switch' in a few weeks. My Romeo Adaci didn't stick while playing, but unlike my old Getzen Sev that needed oil about once per month (really), the new Adaci would need oil every day or two or they felt slow (tight?). I'd wipe them down and re-oil virtually daily, and there was no dirt or visible residue, but it didn't get any better after 2 months ... so I decided to try a different plan. I had been using UP oil, and decided after reading some posts to try Berp Bio Oil. It is certainly thicker than Al Cass, UP, or Getzen's famous blue oil ... so ultimately it may not be as fast as a lighter oil (valves are faster than what I can play), but I never had any issue after switching and it lasted for over a week before I'd need to re-oil. I know oil is cheap, and many clean and re-oil before and after every time they play, but I'm too lazy to do that.
Blessings to you, my friend.
_________________
Blaine
brasshurricane@gmail.com

Schagerl LU5A
DaCarbo Unica
Adams A4 LT-S
Adams F1
Schagerl PT-200S

[OscarTrainer]

I find Hetman Valve oil to work best on the Carols(I have 4 of them, a flugel and a pocket!).

I find that the Ultra Pure that comes standard with them actually results in sluggish valves after a period of time using it.
_________________
Carol Balanced Model, Flugel and Pocket
Vintage Vega Trumpet
2006 BBC Grammy Winner Cross-Cultural Music

[Zman]

Thought I would chime in here as I am a re-seller of the CarolBrass brand. (Canada and New Zealand)

I recommend what most people have done here and rinse the instrument out, use a HW Brass Saver with detergent and give the valve casings a good clean.
I also typically (depending if I have it in stock at the time) will send an extra bottle of Hetman #1 along with the horn so people can decide which works best). Nothing against Ultrapure - it's great stuff.
In the list of top 3 for these based on my own experience.
1) Hetman #1
2) Ultrapure
3) Blue Juice

If you persist for a few weeks then you will be rewarded with some great playing valves.

P.S. The used to ship with Slide-o-mix prior to Ultrapure 3-4 years back. Big leap forward with the new oils.
_________________
Martins:
HC Committee #2
HC Imperial #3 LB & #4 XL Bore
Deluxe Committee Bb, C & Eb
Taylor Chicago II Lite
Yamaha 8335LA

www.thebrasscellar.com
www.facebook.com/thebrasscellar
www.youtube.com/channel/UCZk1sIuyVsQzrbsl7HfIfKw/

[Dan O'Donnell]

It's a funny thing...

I used Zaja oil on my horns for many years.

I then herad good things about Ultra Pure and decided to try UP on all of my horns at the same time.

I thoroughly cleaned everything and started using UP.

Immediately, I encountered the following...

1.) The evaporation rate was much better with UP than Zaja therefore eliminating the need for me to oil my valves as often.

2.) I started having problems with my middle aged Kanstul 1510C Trumpet (valves getting stuck etc.)

I spoke with Zig and he advised me to have the horn thoroughly cleaned.

I had the horn and valves ultra sonic cleaned once and no improvement than another ultra sonic cleaning an again, no improvement.

My friend told me that Zaja has Teflon in it and it helps to coat the valves and casings.

He stated if you leave a bottle alone for a period of time, the Teflon will separate and sink to the bottom of the bottle (which I observed with my excessive inventory of Zaja after using UP for a while)

I switched back to Zaja (only on this horn) and everything was fine.

I still use UP on all of my other horns and I am very pleased.

On the other hand; the valves on my Getzen Genesis are so good, you could use Peanut Butter and they would still be fast and furious...

Here's an idea...Maybe we should start a Getzen Genesis Forum instead of a Wild Thing Forum...
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[TrumpetMD]

[Dan O'Donnell]

Mike,

I tried the chunky peanut butter and it too worked fine...

I'll bet the chunky peanut butter won't work on Wild Things...
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[upoils]

You might also consider trying Ultra-Pure Ultra-Light valve oil.

http://ultrapureoils.com/shop/valve-oil-and-tuning-slide-lubes/ultra-light-valve-oil/

We developed this oil for close tolerance valves and it works quite well on new horns during the break-in period. I have sent some to the Carol Brass factory and they are testing it. I also own several of their instruments and they almost always have very tight tolerance valves, so the Ultra-Light seems to work better.

-Ken
_________________
www.ultrapureoils.com
http://www.facebook.com/ultrapureoils
http://www.facebook.com/ken.saul
ken "at" ultrapureoils.com

[Dan O'Donnell]

Ken,

Thank you for chiming in.

Most all of my other horns LOVE Ultra Pure and the evaporation rate and viscosity is much better than any other oil I have tried.

Having stated the above; I fully trust what you are saying about a lighter oil however, I need for you to help me understand how a thinner oil would help to prevent a metal on metal rub of the barrel of my valve and the inside of the valve casing.

It would seem that a heavier oil would help to create a "thicker" coating on each surface therefore helping to prevent the metal surfaces from rubbing against each other.

Obviously, I am missing something here.

Your explanation would be highly appreciated.
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[upoils]

I made some measurements from my nearly-new CarolBrass Cornet and a CarolBrass trumpet that I have had for a few years. I could not actually measure a difference between them. Both instruments had valves of 0.649 to 0.651 inches diameter, and casings of 0.649 to 0.651. The average clearance was 0.001 inches for both the new and broken-in horns. I probably need better calipers to tell if there is a true difference. The difference in these valves may be the surface finish. The broken-in valves look a little burnished or polished from use, and the new valves look greyer and duller. Over time, they will burnish like the trumpet valves.

CarolBrass uses stainless steel for the valves, but that does not mean that the valves can't get dirty with calcium deposits, grime, dust, slime, etc. Stainless steel may actually need more time to break in and get the burnished appearance compared to Monel or nickel. With the tight tolerances, they certainly need meticulous valve care.

Now, back to the oil viscosity question. The lighter oil clearly provides less drag, and even though the clearance is virtually the same on these horns, the surface finish has more roughness and this is what is likely causing the feel of drag with heavier oils. Both oils will provide good protection from metal-on-metal rubbing, but the lighter oil is more forgiving to surface texture and staining.

The moral of the story -- CarolBrass valves are made to tight tolerances but are not burnished at the factory. This will happen over time as you use the instrument. And during this break-in period (which can take a long time if it is not your primary instrument), a lighter weight oil can feel faster and be a little more tolerant to grime. After breaking in, our standard weight valve oil works fine.
_________________
www.ultrapureoils.com
http://www.facebook.com/ultrapureoils
http://www.facebook.com/ken.saul
ken "at" ultrapureoils.com

[Dan O'Donnell]

Ken,

I appreciate your explanation.

I did not consider the condition of the surfaces.

Now...Back to using Jiffy Peanut Butter!!!
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[MacMichael]

[RandyTX]

[MacMichael]

Well, personally I literally do not buy PVA as a necessity,
but there might be something to it for others.

[yourbrass]

[quote="Dan O'Donnell"]It's a funny thing...

2.) I started having problems with my middle aged Kanstul 1510C Trumpet (valves getting stuck etc.)

I spoke with Zig and he advised me to have the horn thoroughly cleaned.

I had the horn and valves ultra sonic cleaned once and no improvement than another ultra sonic cleaning an again, no improvement.

My friend told me that Zaja has Teflon in it and it helps to coat the valves and casings."

[Dan O'Donnell]

(14) days after switching oils...Big difference...No issues!!!
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[MacMichael]

That is good to hear - and sounds more like the CB valve quality

[trumpaholic]

Hey Mac: Regarding whether or not the valves on the current Carol trumpet I own were badly misaligned, no, they were not. The up-strokes were out by about .005 and the down-strokes were out by about .020. The top felts are made oversize so that with the continued usage they will compress down to a very close tolerance over time.

Ron Partch does all of my PVA's and he uses a bore scope to get very precise alignments. It is very enlightening to watch him do this on the monitor while he adjusts each piston and in my opinion money well spent.

I have PVA's done on all my horns, just a personal preference for me. I like the feel of the new spacing material versus the old felts which have been used since the inception of valved instruments.
_________________
Have horn, will travel!

[MacMichael]