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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:16 pm    Post subject: Another video Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8cNnxLsvdk

Here, Miss Thing is obviously breathing through her mouth center. I think she sounds great! Is there something about her type (or anything else) that lets her get away with this better than some others might?
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But she is keeping constant steady contact between the mouthpiece and embouchure and teeth. That's what is most important, and what most players with problems don't do.

I think she's a IIIA despite her obvious slight pull down for high D's toward the end. Notice those D's are slightly flat, which is because the pull down is wrong for her IIIA chops.

Lots of IIIA's "get away" with that because it really only happens with fatigue, not so much when they're fresh.
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Doug except for one thing....

She IS releasing mp pressure very slightly between attacks. The reason She is getting away with it is because she is young and her reflexes are still fast. Lets see how she sounds at 45 years old.

You would be amazed at what you can get away with when you are young. Basically as far as trumpet playing is concerned youth gives you a "pass" lots of times.

She is definitely a IIIA. Notice the slight "pout" of the lower lip and VERY flat chin. That is a IIIA dead give away.

The IIIB plays with the lower lip way more rolled in. Look at any picture of Me or Brian and you will see that instantly.

Chris LaBarbera
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Releasing pressure between attacks is something that virtually every brass players does.

We as Reinhardt students know that he taught keeping the pressure on, and we do that as a safety measure to keep everything together.

EVERY other brass player thinks that's ridiculous.

The fact is, that ONE thing won't hurt you IF most everything else is right. Players with problems typically have several things going wrong at the same time.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:05 am    Post subject: Another video Reply with quote

Hello all,
I am not really into labeling what embouchure's are, but Tine continually amazes me with her consistency of full tone on everything she does. And, she does most of her playing on C. I believe I found that she plays mostly on a Bach 1.25 or 1.5 piece. If that currently is true, then I am finding with the classically trained folks are putting their time in and reaping huge benefits using bigger/wider pieces. I am sure concept of sound and type of music she performs has much to do with her end product.
By the way Chris, I enjoy all of what you add to this forum also. I have tried to catch all the videos you have posted and the opinions you have on playing.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my own perspective as a player, mouthpiece maker, and Reinhardt student, the larger mouthpiece sizes apply best to Reinhardt's embouchure Type IIIA, which is what Tine is.

It's not so much a question of "classically trained" players...

That particular embouchure type is comfortable and plays best on big diameters.

The other embouchure types would typically be struggling on the same sizes, classically trained or not.
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much for the kind words Christian.

Doug- Yes I agree 100% IIIA's do well on a larger diameter. But you be amazed at how many play on a "bent dime". The don't get the "lip protrusion" into the cup like a IIIB does. Because of the more horizontal angle and the super flat chin that most IIIA's have.

I see many IIIA's doing good on a mp like a Reeves 43ES or a Findley Marcinck. Wide diameter -shallow cup. A IIIB usually bottoms out on those....

CLB
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, at least a IIIA can sound great ...

I appreciate these insights!
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug,

In response to:

Quote:
The other embouchure types would typically be struggling on the same sizes, classically trained or not.


I thought I remembered you saying at some point that IVs probably benefit from large rims in the same way that IIIAs do. Did I imagine that, or is it something you're not certain about?

Thanks!

(Side note: I'm a IIIA who switched to a larger mouthpiece made by Doug, and I really don't want to ever go back to playing a smaller 'piece. It gives me a bigger sound AND better consistency in all registers.)
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some IV's do better on small mouthpieces and some do better on big mouthpieces. I don't know how to predict which is which.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great! Thanks.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious why you guys are so confident that Tine Thing is a IIIA. What are the tells, aside from the flat chin, for example?

I can definitely see how her face looks like a classic IIIA, as does the horn angle. However, she plays with very little motion (which I more often notice is the case with IIIBs than other types), and what little motion there is seems to be very consistently IIIB. (I watched a few other videos and saw the same thing, although it's pretty hard to get any really good shots of her playing big intervals - wide ranges don't seem to be her thing!)

Her placement also looks pretty low to me (she's got a lot of bottom lip in the mouthpiece).

For example, she looks very IIIBish to me at 1:40-1:45 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz0l1dn8L4U

Same thing at 2:15-2:25.

Reminds me a little of bit of Allen Vizzutti, except with a higher horn angle!

The lack of consistency in sound and pitch in her upper register towards the end of the clip originally posted really jumped out at me, as well, however.

If she is indeed, say, a IIIA who is trying to play as a IIIB: is that a common thing for players of her caliber? Or is this a pretty rare case?

The thing that always strikes me with her is how she looks like she's not even playing: it looks like an actor pretending to play the trumpet in a movie.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Players who don't know about embouchure types aren't "trying to play as a IIIB.". She's just playing as a fine musician who does what she does, and doesn't know any more about embouchure than most players.

She looks exactly like a IIIA under those conditions.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, Doug.

It's a little frightening to think that someone playing incorrectly can be this successful as a brass player. Food for thought.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul T. wrote:

The thing that always strikes me with her is how she looks like she's not even playing: it looks like an actor pretending to play the trumpet in a movie.


Yeah, like falling off a log; no effort required! Why is it a I always play best when my practicing of fundamentals has that as the goal?
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's always best to practice in the woods, I've found.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly less than ideal mechanics does not equal "playing incorrectly."
She does a lot more "right" than the vast majority of players.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. Thanks, Doug!
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another one of these prodigal Scandinavian trumpet players:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-qf1blogAg#t=308

She seems more like a classic IIIB, yeah?

(There are youtube videos of both ladies playing the same piece, to compare and contrast.)


Last edited by Paul T. on Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The theatrics in her videos are a bit much. Nice shades on the conductor too, what's that about? How do you like that forced smile every time she takes the mouthpiece off? And she's almost always using a clip-on mic and sounds like she's playing with no projection. Great technique, but otherwise beauty pageant training.

Sorry to disappoint you Paul, but I think she would be a IIIA, playing as a IIIB. Looks good and sounds good now, but has limitations and won't last forever, especially if she ever has to produce a lot of sound and really project. It won't happen the way she's playing now.
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