Do you agree or disagree?

richj50 · Veteran Member Joined: 02 Dec 2001 Posts: 370

Assertion: When playing *ANY* note fingered 1-2, one ought to extend the 1st valve slide slightly.

Reasoning: Depressing the second valve essentially makes the horn 1/2 step lower and therefore renders the 1st valve slide a little too short for the "longer" horn, thereby necessitating this 1st valve slide correction.

Do you agree or disagree?

(I agree and use the 1st valve slide a lot. I'm often puzzled as to why this isn't a universal practice, so I'm interested to hear some opposing viewpoints.)

Thanks,
Rich

_Don Herman · Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:39 am Post subject:

Depends on where you are in the chord, too... Sometimes, you want to be up a little (e.g., the fifth) and sometimes down (e.g., the third). I rarely use mine on the low E, but sometimes ya' just gotta', and often use it for A in and over the staff, but again sometimes not. I don't use it nearly as much as I should, BTW.

How's that for a perfect "sometimes" as I stay (as usual) on both sides of the fence?

FWIW - Don
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Zaphod · Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:05 am Post subject:

In general, you are right.
But - for that reason - the 1st slide often is a little bit longer than needed for "standard" horn. Bb" e.g. seems to be a little flat to me.
Remember: thetrumpet is not in perfect harmony, every tone is a compromise - some are better, some not so good.
A above the staff is awfully high, but A in the staff seems to be OK, C# is fine.
A below: sometimes high, sometimes low; it depends on me.

Another point:
after years one gets used to correct sharp or flat notes on the intrument.
This means that you are right with your theory, but don't play better in tune when adjusting your slides for every note. It is difficult not to overdo the correction with lips+slides.

Have fun, make music!

NCTrumpet · Veteran Member Joined: 03 Jan 2002 Posts: 113

Read Charley Geyer's article in "The Instrumetalist", from a couple of months ago(he's on the cover). He goes into detail about this very question with some pretty good facts to back up his argument. He, too, advocates using the first slide, specifically with 1&2 combinations.

[ This Message was edited by: NCTrumpet on 2002-02-23 12:26 ]

[ This Message was edited by: NCTrumpet on 2002-02-23 12:27 ]

vivace · Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:34 am Post subject:

I use the thrid valve a lot for a low E. It seems to be more in tune when I use the 3rd valve. It sounded really great for the big finale of my solo piece... it was an E, and I used the 3rd valve and it sounded very nice.
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Webbsta78 · Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:08 pm Post subject:

On the Bb I tend to use it rarely, it just feels better without the adjustment,

But on the C trumpet, I feel the need to extend the 1st valve slide slightly for E and C# and slightly more for the A.

Jason

trickg · Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 3:41 pm Post subject:

It depends on the horn and how you play. If you have a good ear and flexible chops, 1 & 2 isn't out too far and you will almost automatically pull it in tune with your chops so I tend to disagree with that statement. I tend to be a little too far out on first ledger A so I tend to use it there, but usually not anywhere else.
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tcutrpt · Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 4:02 pm Post subject:

I tend to use it on low e and sometimes high A. Most of the time though, the notes are fairly in tune without the slide and I lip them where they need to be. I've noticed on my C that I don't need to use the slide nearly as much for some reason. The notes seem to lock in much better for me than the same notes on Bb.

Matt Cyr

Kanstul223 · New Member Joined: 15 Feb 2002 Posts: 8

On my horn, i find that the mid-register C# is in tune without the use of the first valve slide. However, everyother 1-2 combination requires the used of the first slide, even low A. I also recomend Charlie Geyer's article mentioned earlier, it is very enlightening on the subject.
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Strawdoggy · Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2002 7:37 am Post subject:

I use it for A first ledger line above the staff and first line E. Just about an eighth - quarter of an inch. Only on longer notes, though. Other 1 and 2 combinations seem to be pretty close on my horn.

Garroid · Posted: Fri May 24, 2002 6:19 am Post subject:

Hmmmm......
I think a lot of very brilliant and valid posts have been made, but I would like to meekly steer you all to this wildly outrageous tangent of mine for a few seconds:

PLAY WITH YOUR EARS!!! All of you who can do lip bends of whole steps etc... should know what I'm talking about - look at the note hear it, nail it, and your ear should have a pretty tight leash on your lips. You should be able to tune the horn way sharp relative to everyone else and still play in perfect tune with little extra effort.

Ok, I'm fine, - really. I'm not angry, I just needed to get that out of my system. I love an anylitical discussion as much as the next guy, but I always remind myself that it's a means to an end.

I love you all, really.....
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_bugleboy · Posted: Fri May 24, 2002 6:32 am Post subject:

I never use the 1st valve tuning slide. Too lazy I guess.

If a 1/2 note is so sharp that lip/ear tuning is difficult (like a soft A on top of the staff or low E) then a 3rd valve alternate fingering is an easy solution.

mark936 · Posted: Sat May 25, 2002 8:11 am Post subject:

I disagree.

I just posted over on Usenet music makers trumpet about how I just had my first valve slide trigger slider removed.

I'm in love with my horn all over again.
What a difference.

My thumb can now move all around and the horn is unbelievably comfortable now.

I always hit a note and try to get it in tune in a micro second, then add vibrato if appropriate.

No more first valve trigger or slide and very happy about it.

"No charge." thanks Carlos at Calicchio.

I disagree.

mm

Nicholas Dyson · Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2002 4:03 pm Post subject:

Here's my 1 1/2 cents...

In theory, you are absolutely right. It's a fact. All of the posters talking about compromises are totally spot on.

The individual slides on an instrument are built to be a compromise, so they'll all be pretty close with every valve combination. This is why you have to push your 3rd valve slide for low D and C#. Basically, when you play an E, your trumpet is now pitched in G, rather than Bb. To add an additional half or whole step down, the relationship between the tubing and the key of the instrument requires that you use more. This is why they just don't make the 3rd valve slide longer to begin with.

However, all that being said, we're trying to utilize perfect theory in an imperfect way. Every trumpet is different, with different compromises being made, so there is no general rule.

Again, play with your ears, they'll set you up.

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Warbird · Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:58 pm Post subject:

In theory that is right. BUT (there is always a big but...), it is different with every horn. Some horn require compensation moreso then others and some require little to no compessation on some notes.

The only common misconception I know of is that there are some 1-2 combinations (G below the staff) that does not require compensation because of the loosened lips.

Why don't they just start putting the 1st valve hooks on the student horns rather then the 3rd valve ring. I find it easier and quicker to move the 1st valve hook. Less resistance on the metal I guess.

In Christ,
Joseph N. Pack

Nicholas Dyson · Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 6:45 pm Post subject:

[quote]
On 2002-06-03 19:58, Warbird wrote:
In theory that is right. BUT (there is always a big but...), it is different with every horn. Some horn require compensation moreso then others and some require little to no compessation on some notes.

Dig, that's exactly what I said.. there is no general rule, every horn is based on a different set of compromises.
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_PhilPicc · Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:25 pm Post subject:

Question?

How did all those great trumpet players years ago play in tune before slide rings and triggers?

There are certainly notes I use the slides. But basically I lip in tune with the group. I think after years of playing it becomes instinct, although I do run across exceptions.

In tune sometimes,

Phil
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Nicholas Dyson · Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 10:17 pm Post subject:

I was reading an earlier post about the Antiphonal Music of Gabrielli recording done in the 50s (I think) with the brass sections from Chicago, Cleveland and Philly Orchestras where when they were suppin up at the pub across the street after the session they realized they had forgotten to tune. I believe (and feel free to correct me) that is still considered to be one of the best recordings of that stuff. Dig those ears...
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Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Too many variables to agree / disagree or generalise....

Player chop set up[ method] / horn + mpc combo / chop strength / and any combo of these mentioned previously.

From a playing point of view it depends on where you are in the harmonic structure of the chord and what type of 'timbral' setting you are....Big Band / Theatre / Orch / Br.Ens.

Keep your ears open....

wha?...OH SORRY LOVE...Comiiiinnggg!!!

Roddy o-iii<O
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walter · Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:34 pm Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 08:36 ]