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Cliff Fitch Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2003 Posts: 435 Location: Azle, Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: 3rd Valve Tone ring |
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What does a 3rd valve tone ring do? I see that they come with some new Bach's. Thanks _________________ 1977 Bach Stradivarius Model 37 (Lacquered)
1972 L.A. Benge 3X+ MLP (Lacquered)
Member: International Trumpet Guild |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: |
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There's a page on the Kessler Music website that talks about this. Here's what it says:
"The 3rd valve tone ring is not a new concept but simply this is Bach's officially manufactured version of it. Developed at the request of artist Michael Sachs (Principal Trumpet for Cleveland Orchestra) for the Bach Artisan trumpet line, some players feel this ring helps accentuate the tone of the instrument.....particularly the Bb and C."
Does it really do anything? Beats me. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Last edited by HERMOKIWI on Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12679 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Veddy interestink.
I get "Page Not Found..." when I click on the link. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:52 am Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: |
Veddy interestink.
I get "Page Not Found..." when I click on the link. |
I got "page not found" too. So I went back and edited my post to quote what was on the page I got the link from. I don't know why the link didn't work because I copied it directly from the page. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Accentuate:
1. to give emphasis or prominence to.
2. to mark or pronounce with an accent.
So, if you don't use one your tone will be de-emphasized, obscured, undefined. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12679 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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crzytptman wrote: | Accentuate:
1. to give emphasis or prominence to.
2. to mark or pronounce with an accent.
So, if you don't use one your tone will be de-emphasized, obscured, undefined. |
or less emphasized or prominent. But remember this is one of the 99% that are not wild things. |
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C.E.Divine Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 285
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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From what I remember reading, a lot of energy of the trumpet is lost around the knuckle going in to the 3rd casing. This allows the player to get closer to the supposed point of loss than say a heavy bottom cap on the 3rd casing. Voodoo? Maybe, maybe not. I enjoy trumpets with heavy trim myself, and once my lathe skills increase, intend to machine a style of bottom cap I have never seen before that combines the cap and tone ring concept. Just an experiment in energy transference. _________________ Corey Divine
Bach LR19043B B-flat
Blackburn converted Bach C
Kanstul CC920 Piccolo
Blessing XL Flugelhorn
J.W. York and Sons Perfec-Tone B-flat/A Cornet |
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jungledoc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2014 Posts: 613 Location: Papua New Guinea
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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crzytptman wrote: | Accentuate:
1. to give emphasis or prominence to.
2. to mark or pronounce with an accent.
So, if you don't use one your tone will be de-emphasized, obscured, undefined. |
Of course, those of us who have bad tone want it de-emphasized, obscured and undefined. _________________ Andy
I'll admit it. It's a TR300, but it wants to be a Strad when it grows up. |
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darksmoke Regular Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2020 Posts: 45 Location: Washington
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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C.E.Divine wrote: | I enjoy trumpets with heavy trim myself, and once my lathe skills increase, intend to machine a style of bottom cap I have never seen before that combines the cap and tone ring concept. Just an experiment in energy transference. |
Do let us know if you get around to your new bottom cap idea and how it works out, sounds interesting _________________ Bach 1B
-Reeves 40ES DM
-Giardinelli 4*
-Callet SC6 |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Resonance is a form of energy transfer by sympathetic vibration.
This sympathetic vibration is sustained and adds to the existing vibration at the resonant frequency of the material being stimulated.
A water molecule has a resonant frequency of 24 gigahertz and a microwave oven generates frequencies in the 24 gigahertz band. The water molecules in food and drink are stimulated and absorb this energy causing them to heat up.
Heating is a form of transfer of energy and energy loss, and is put to good use here as an oven.
In an automobile the suspension has a resonant frequency and this would lead to a very bouncy ride if a damper were not used to absorb the energy in the vibrations of the suspension. A shock absorber turns the movements of the suspension into heat in a slightly different way to that of the transfer of energy into heat that happens in a microwave oven but the principle holds.
As for trumpets the material of the trumpet is vibrated by the standing wave in the instrument. The heavier the material the lower its resonant frequency.
The standing wave contains energy and this energy when it vibrates the material of the instrument at the resonant frequency of the material will cause energy to be lost from the standing wave into the fabric of the instrument and this will weaken the standing wave so as to be no longer available to emerge strongly from the bell in any resonated frequencies.
Adding a tone ring can be considered a form of tuning of the instrument to propagate some frequencies and to dampen others.
This is not the whole story however as with water molecules that heat up over time, resonance increases as more energy is applied to the water.
A resonating element such as a tone ring will be increasingly stimulated as the standing wave transfers energy to it and the tone ring will then add resonant energy back into the standing wave.
The result that we can expect is a propagation of lower frequencies that will add core to the tone and a dampening of unwanted higher pitches.
The tone ring and the valve block will form a system and the tone ring can be expected to affect to some degree the entire valve block by changing the resonant characteristics of the entire valve block. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2350 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:01 am Post subject: |
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I do think tone rings have an affect, a very subtle one. I've been using them for years on all my Bach's, currently experimenting with the idea on a SChilke Eb Cornet.
I feel the difference in swapping them on and off - I like the results so, I think it helps thus I play better.
The other thing I see are O-rings against the bottom cap - Curry supplies some with his heavy caps. I think they have a similar affect, a tic more deadening.
I've seen C Trumpets with O-rings on all three valves.
Back in the day there were players that used Grime Gutters - loosen the bottom caps so they are ever so lightly in place and put the grime gutter on. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 526 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:06 am Post subject: |
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C.E.Divine wrote: | From what I remember reading, a lot of energy of the trumpet is lost around the knuckle going in to the 3rd casing. This allows the player to get closer to the supposed point of loss than say a heavy bottom cap on the 3rd casing. Voodoo? Maybe, maybe not. I enjoy trumpets with heavy trim myself, and once my lathe skills increase, intend to machine a style of bottom cap I have never seen before that combines the cap and tone ring concept. Just an experiment in energy transference. |
Something like the Dennis wick tone collar? _________________ www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3332 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:40 am Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | ... I see are O-rings against the bottom cap - Curry supplies some with his heavy caps. I think they have a similar affect, a tic more deadening.
... |
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I've recently put an o-ring inside each bottom valve cap - and they do seem to make a difference.
Suitable size o-rings can be found in hardware stores, Home Depot, etc. When you go to buy, take one of the valve caps along with you.
For me, just having the bottom cap (with the o-ring) mildly snug-tight works well.
With the o-ring, I feel less vibration of the horn itself, and hear what seems to be a 'fuller' sound.
My guess is that the reduced 'felt vibrations' results in more 'sound energy'.
A search of TH will find several older threads about using o-rings.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Locutus2k Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 635 Location: Rome, Italy
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Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:50 am Post subject: |
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I've always thought that o-rings should placed between the bottom cap and the casing, not inside the bottom cap itself.
Closing more or less the cap(s) with the o-ring will change the way the horn vibrate in some frequencies, common opinion is to leave the third very light, almost unscrewed, tighten very well the second and a bit less the first. _________________ ------------------------
Edwards X-13
Lawler TL5 Balanced 30th Anniversary (#2 of 5)
Lawler TL5 L bore
Bach NY Special edition 2008
Flugel Van Laar Oiram Ack
Mark Curry mouthpieces
------------------------ |
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HoosierBrass Regular Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2021 Posts: 22
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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They come with the AB190 series trumpets, but do these tone rings fit on the 180 series or the non-AB 190 series trumpets? |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2350 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:22 am Post subject: |
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HoosierBrass wrote: | They come with the AB190 series trumpets, but do these tone rings fit on the 180 series or the non-AB 190 series trumpets? |
Yes, they do. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2645
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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My heavier Monette trumpets came with O rings for the valve caps. I bought a lighter Monette and it didn't have them. I called and asked why. The answer I got was, "Dave thought the trumpet played better without them. We'll send you some and you can tell us what you think." The trumpet plays better without them. Maybe the tone ring works on some trumpets and not others?
I used to think I could modify a trumpet and customize it to me. As I get older I'm thinking that the manufacturer knows best. Buy a trumpet that fits you from the factory. Pass on the trumpet that needs to be different. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12679 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetchops wrote: | I used to think I could modify a trumpet and customize it to me. As I get older I'm thinking that the manufacturer knows best. Buy a trumpet that fits you from the factory. Pass on the trumpet that needs to be different. |
I suspect the majority here would be hard pressed to be able to detect minor changes and what modification was responsible. So chasing "the tweak" that will make the horn perfect is a waste of time for most of us. Heck, even Doc has chased "the horn" for his lifetime.
There is a reason the good trumpet designers and techs are in demand.
That is not to say that we cannot know a horn is right for us when we find it. |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2668 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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These may help, they may not. My colleague tried a Bach one out on his 2 Bach C tpts last quintet rehearsal. One sounded better to us the other not. He felt exactly the opposite.
So there you go. The proper response to the OP is:
Maybe, maybe not.
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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