A Non-American CSO Principal

johntpt · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:02 pm Post subject:

What are your opinions about the CSO hiring a foreigner as Principal Trumpet?

Personally I think it's exciting that a new style and sound will be heard in Chicago. Both finalists are two of the top European players at the moment. The USA has always been a place where people from all over the globe come for better opportunities and a new life. Chicago, like all large American cities, is a melting pot where Germans, Poles, Irishmen, and many others found the American dream. Today it's Chinese, Mexican, and certainly many others, but Chicago continues to be a place where people from all over come to live and work. Why not with music as well?

JU

jhatpro · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:15 pm Post subject:

Why not, indeed! Neither national origin nor any other category save musical excellence should be a criterion for selection to a premier orchestra. (As long as he or she agrees to also root for the Cubs, of course.)
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_Don Herman · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:12 pm Post subject:

It's the sound that matters...

Not sure about the Cubs bit, guess there's a downside to every job!

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robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

Those are good points. Let's consider, though, the fact that none of us in the US could easily arrange to even audition for a European orchestra. Recent decisions in the EU have all but closed off opportunities we once could have pursued.

Furthermore, many great European orchestras have always been reticent to hire foreigners - especially for principal positions. I know there are some exceptions. But, just for fun, let's all of us American orchestral guys send our CV to the Berlin Philharmonic for their Solo Trompete vacancy. I'll bet $100 none of us get invited (except maybe Craig Morris).

Bob

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

Bob,

My friend, I tried emailing the Berlin Phil about their vacancy a couple months ago, and it got bumped back to me. I guess they had their "American Musician Filter" on!

It will be interesting to hear the two finalists when they get their week to play with the CSO. I guess Principal in the MET wasn't good enough for one of them, so maybe the CSO will be a "better fit."

romey

[ This Message was edited by: romey1 on 2003-11-04 22:50 ]

Everhigher · Regular Member Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 47

For the record --

The current principal flutist of the CSO is "not an American." The principal oboist is not American. I wouldn't trade the sound of these two players for 100 Americans. Just a few years ago, one of the co-concertmasters was not an American (unless you count SOUTH American). And the list goes on. As someone has already said, only the sound matters. Bud Herseth would probably be the first to agree.

Al Pickard

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[ This Message was edited by: Everhigher on 2003-11-04 23:29 ]

captain canuck · Regular Member Joined: 23 Oct 2003 Posts: 83

Chicago Symphony Orchestra Japan Tour
The Chicago Symphony Orchestra and its music director Daniel Barenboim were on a two-week tour of Japan. The tour took the CSO to Tokyo, Osaka, and Fukuoka, and then back to Tokyo where the CSO made a rare appearance as a ballet orchestra in Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and Firebird and Ravel's Bolero.

Anyone know who was in the "hot seat"?

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

Mark Ridenour has been "acting principal trumpet" until they hire someone.

romey

TrentAustin · Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:53 am Post subject:

It really doesn't matter where the person's from unless they're from Pluto or Krypton...which they might have to be to fill one Bud's huge shoes.

Just make wonderful music and we'll all be in awe.

Best,

Trent
http://www.trentaustin.com
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gus · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 452

In Berlin I am sure that there is no issue about
where you are from, but I am not sure about
other Orchestras. Remember Bob Platt. And now there are
even more foreigners.

Anyway, for being invited to Berlin, you have to have
a really good CV.

Regards.

Gus

robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

Gus,

The opportunities for guys like Bob Platt to pursue foreign jobs are no longer as prevalent. Remember, he's been there since, like, 1969. Laws have been passed in the EU in recent years preventing non-EU citizens from taking these sort of jobs.

Granted, for a soloist position such as is currently open in the Berlin Phil, they'll probably expand their search to foreigners with impressive careers. But take a look at section jobs with various european groups posted on musicalchairs.info, and you'll see that more and more of them are open to Europeans only! Fair or not? I'm not taking a position, I just think it makes for interesting discussion.

Bob

gus · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 452

Yes I agree with you.

But let's face it. In big jobs ( CSO. Berlin ), it is probably that
no one will ask where are you from. In fact from what I have
heard the audition committe of CSO rejected many well known pros
of the USA and they sticked with two foreigners ( Well known
foreigners ).

In Berlin it is the same thing -should you first have an impresive
CV and being invited - . You are right with Bob because he is
there from the beginning of the times, but you see Baborak
that is Bulgarian he entered as first horn when Bulgary was not
in the EU ( I do not know if Bulgary is already in the EU ), this
man was literally begged to accept the post.

I know that a smaller orch. perhapt will not allow to participate
other countries' citizens (In fact one of my biggest friends returned to his country because he couldn't obtain the permission ), but it is not
always like that.

Gus

zachenos · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:19 am Post subject:

Another point in regards to the difficulty US Players have gaining access to European Orchestras. I recently spent a year in London and I was quite shocked to learn that non-EU players (specifically in this case, students in the UK with student visas) could not accept gigs, period. While some managed to do it through under the table arrangements, you can imagine how that would limit the playing opportunities.

ZE

[ This Message was edited by: zachenos on 2003-12-04 10:21 ]

[ This Message was edited by: zachenos on 2003-12-04 10:22 ]

trumpetfox1234 · Regular Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 61

In Reference to the Chicago Sound:

You might want to check out this book that describes how Herseth, Jacobs, and Scarlett think when they produced the "Chicago Sound." Bud loves this book and Scarlett said that "it continues the work of Arnold Jacobs" They both reviewed the book favorably.

The book is: Stage Fright in Music Performance and Its Relationship to the Unconscious, 2nd ed" and the website is:

http://www.trumpetworkspress.com

patrick32378 · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:42 pm Post subject:

I think that we are far more open to the idea of a foreign player in our orchestras than most european orchestras. Places like france/italy/parts of spain. Forget about it! I am as welcoming as anyone but when do we realize that we, in fact, are simply not wanted in many of these orchestras. Do these foreign orchestras have appealing processes like we do so that a player HAS to be heard if they have enough preserverence to go thru the process? On the other side of things: We must realize ,especially in germany, that our concepts of trumpet playing may not be what they are seeking even though things are becoming more globalized. Ultimately I think if you want to get a gig in country X, you should speak that language, own equipment that they play, etc. I was a little saddended when I heard that many asian orchestras conduct their rehearsals in english. But then again, I dont speak any foreign languages, I only own piston horns, and I'd love to play in another country..so. Whatever.

oneeyedhobbit · Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:29 am Post subject:

The Cubs Jim!?!?! Where is the White Sox love:)

Actually, can someone fill me in on this--I'm not TECHICALLY from Chicago, just going to school here--but I'm plenty proud to claim the CSO as well as my beloved MNSO as MY orchestra--who are the two contenders? What other big namers were bumped?

mikeapp · New Member Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 4

Only the music counts. It is the universal language and it knows no boundaries.

jcdob · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject:

Dear Zachenos,

Here in the US it is the same thing...as an international student, with a student visa... You are not allowed to get gigs unless you do it under the table. It is not only a EU law. They do it to try to protect the jobs in the country but it's not the best way.

JC

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject:

jcdob --

Actually, that's not quite true. After being enrolled for one year, international students in the US are eligible to do what is called Curricular Practical Training. For a music major, that means you're legally allowed to teach or take playing gigs. After graduation, international students can apply for Optional Practical Training, which is essentially a one-year work authorization. Different schools may have different interpretations of what's allowable, and some of this may have changed or tightened up in the last couple of years, but this is how it worked for me as an international student at Indiana.

I'm sure I could come up with something more off-topic if I really tried...

Nails · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject:

NE-

Does the same go for international students in Canada? When I was in BC they told me I could not work with a student visa, and that I could not have both a student and work visa at the same time. When I got called for various sub jobs the orchestras said not to worry about the visa and that they would pay me cash! It was wierd. Sorry I guess this is off topic.

Nathan