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andybharms Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 633 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:52 am Post subject: Schilke tunable bell Bb |
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Hello,
I have a question for owners of a Schilke tunable bell Bb.
Do you find the upper register of your trumpet to be notably stuffier than the rest of the trumpet, or that of a fixed bell Bb? Are there any steps you have taken to improve this?
Thanks! _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
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deanoaks Regular Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2015 Posts: 75 Location: US
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Tunable bell instruments have wonky intonation as a general rule of thumb, and if for no other reason than that you should probably try to avoid a tunable bell Bb instrument. That is fairly bizarre... |
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kristiner Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2012 Posts: 118 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:24 am Post subject: |
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My 30 year old C1L has better intonation than any other C trumpet I've played. It has the Schilke adjustable bell brace, which does help to lock things in - tuning is considerably more wonky and the upper register is more difficult without the brace. Maybe try that? _________________ Kris Tiner
Professor of Music, Director of Jazz Studies
Bakersfield College
http://kristiner.com |
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andybharms Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 633 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:27 am Post subject: |
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The intonation is quite good... very high on the spectrum of Bbs. I am assuming that bracing affects different registers'/notes' standing waves, and if, in the case of the minimal bracing of tuning bell instruments, it just happens to generally affect the upper register for the worse. I have played plenty of tuning bell Ebs but not a Bb, so I don't really have a frame of reference.
Just curious. _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
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CRoberts8 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 833 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:47 am Post subject: |
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deanoaks wrote: | Tunable bell instruments have wonky intonation as a general rule of thumb, and if for no other reason than that you should probably try to avoid a tunable bell Bb instrument. That is fairly bizarre... |
Dean, I must respectfully disagree.
My Akright conversion Bach Bb, complete with tunable bell, has among the best intonation of any instrument I have played, and believe me, I have been through pretty much every Bb on the market. Many of the Schilke tunable bell Bb trumpets I have played have had intonation similar to Bb's with standard bracing, in no way were they by any generalization "worse" than their braced counterparts. |
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bagmangood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 Posts: 1352 Location: SF Bay Area
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:49 am Post subject: |
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The Schilke tuneable bell horns I've played were quite nice, but I have not had a chance to A/B them against their fixed bell counterparts before. I didn't notice any difference in resistance in different registers on the ones I've played.
deanoaks wrote: | Tunable bell instruments have wonky intonation as a general rule of thumb, and if for no other reason than that you should probably try to avoid a tunable bell Bb instrument. That is fairly bizarre... |
A well made tuneable bell instrument will have the opposite effect in my experience. The lack of "gaps" in the earlier part of the horn greatly improve intonation.
However, the lack of bracing will dramatically change how the horn plays. You may find that slotting is looser and usually there is some loss of projection, but there is also improved feedback. Getting an adjustable brace can help with those issues. _________________ More than one trumpet
A "few" mouthpieces |
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oliver king Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Posts: 1742
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: |
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CRoberts8 wrote: | deanoaks wrote: | Tunable bell instruments have wonky intonation as a general rule of thumb, and if for no other reason than that you should probably try to avoid a tunable bell Bb instrument. That is fairly bizarre... |
Dean, I must respectfully disagree.
My Akright conversion Bach Bb, complete with tunable bell, has among the best intonation of any instrument I have played, and believe me, I have been through pretty much every Bb on the market. Many of the Schilke tunable bell Bb trumpets I have played have had intonation similar to Bb's with standard bracing, in no way were they by any generalization "worse" than their braced counterparts. |
This. |
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kristiner Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2012 Posts: 118 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
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-edit- _________________ Kris Tiner
Professor of Music, Director of Jazz Studies
Bakersfield College
http://kristiner.com
Last edited by kristiner on Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kristiner Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2012 Posts: 118 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:25 am Post subject: |
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bagmangood wrote: | However, the lack of bracing will dramatically change how the horn plays. You may find that slotting is looser and usually there is some loss of projection, but there is also improved feedback. Getting an adjustable brace can help with those issues. |
It definitely does. The advantage of a tunable bell is having that extra parameter to dial in the resistance and response where you want it. The adjustable brace gives you one more variable to work with. Or one more level of frustration, however you want to look at it. Took me about a year to get my C1L exactly where I want it, but I'm very happy with it now. _________________ Kris Tiner
Professor of Music, Director of Jazz Studies
Bakersfield College
http://kristiner.com |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:58 am Post subject: |
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deanoaks wrote: | Tunable bell instruments have wonky intonation as a general rule of thumb, and if for no other reason than that you should probably try to avoid a tunable bell Bb instrument. That is fairly bizarre... |
Indeed is your statement fairly bizarre.
BTW I own a Henri Selmer B700 tuning bell trumpet and the intonation is quite good (though slotting is loose indeed).
There has been some comparison between the intonation of a tuning bell and a conventional belled trumpet, this was the conclusion:
The following facts derived from the test results, may be of interest:
On the slide-tuned trumpet the average deviation was 8.57 cents, compared to only 6.96 cents on the bell-tuned trumpet, representing a difference of 35.09 percent (there are 100 cents to the semi-tone).
On averaging out the whole range of the test with reference to the tuning standard, the slide-tuned trumpet was found to be .04 cents flat. The bell-tuned trumpet yielded the far more preferable figure of 0.03 cents sharp.
On the slide-tuned trumpet the usual tuning notes of A and B-flat were significantly out of tune, the A being 2.57 cents sharp, and the B-flat being 6.43 cents sharp. On the bell-tuned trumpet these notes were each less than 0.5 cents sharp.
You can find that here:
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Tunable%20Bell%20Trumpets.html |
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A_Ason Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Posts: 272 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Tunable%20Bell%20Trumpets.html _________________ Arne Andersson
Monettes, Eclipse, Lars Gerdt, Taylor, Del Quadro, Schilke, Getzen, Benge, Conn, Olds, Besson, Martin, Puje, Alexander, Lawler, Wild Thing, Bach, Ken Larson... |
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greenetrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2008 Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:18 am Post subject: Tuning bell Bbs |
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I played a Schilke X3L for about 35 years and found the intonation and upper register to be wonderful. I used the Berillium bell for most applications and the brass bell less often. The only concern I had over those years was it did not record well. Other than that It was a great experience playing. |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I played on a Schilke B1L for a number of years, and never had any stuffiness problem with it at all. After that I went to a horn with no brace between the bell and tuning slide forward of the valve cluster, and never had any intonation problems with it that were not my fault. (I like looser slotting, of course) |
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C.E.Divine Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 285
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just an observation-
Dean Oaks currently sits at five posts.
Dean Oaks also posted a picc allegedly owned by Gerry Webster in the marketplace within the last 24 hours.
Sounds like he may be full of a lot of hot air. And not the kind used to play trumpet. He only needs to meet the post count to sell his picc, which if it was actually Gerry Webster's former picc, he would mention he has documentation. Or God forbid, actually upload a picture of proof. _________________ Corey Divine
Bach LR19043B B-flat
Blackburn converted Bach C
Kanstul CC920 Piccolo
Blessing XL Flugelhorn
J.W. York and Sons Perfec-Tone B-flat/A Cornet |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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When I use Bb I have a B3L from the early 90s that replaced one from 1969 that was stolen. Somewhere along the line I needed work on the original B3 so I had the Schilke shop convert it to tuning bell. I loved it. I also own another 1969 B3 with regular braced bell, the B3L is much better for me. And, I've played on a CXL regularly since about 1973 or so, horn was built in 1967 or 68. Great projection and feedback and blended just fine with a 239 Bach and now a Yamaha NY C. I've since purchased a Yam Chi C and am using it at present but not going to get rid of the CXL. I really like the tuning bells, even got a beryllium bell from an X3 I can use if I wish.
Bad intonation from a Schilke? The problem wasn't the manufacturer or the instrument... |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1531 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:06 pm Post subject: Schilke tunable bells |
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Hello all,
The OP asked for something fairly specific. I bought my B1 in 1976 and had it converted to a tuning bell in 1977. I bought my current B2L in 2000, used, as it is a mid 1970's horn. I have also played the fixed bell counterparts. First off, the Schilke valved trumpets play more consistant than the Yamaha valved horns. The Schilke, fixed bell horns have tighter slots than than the tunable bell horns. Over all, the fact that some of these models are step bore horns, play bigger than their bore size. You guys that play the straight bore, X or XL have my greatest admiration. I certainly don't have the gas to drive them...But the sound/volume must be wonderful.
The tunable bell horns have less resistance and are pretty free blowing. The feel, blow and intonation of Schilkes are top-notch. I often wondered about the sound in front of my B1L and that is the reason for buying a B2L...along with wanting a Schilke valve section. Schilke bells are already pretty light and responsive. If you want an even better, quicker "WHOA" kind of sound, the beryllium bell might be the answer.
These are my opinions for Schilke on an almost 40 year ride with them. I can do at least 95% of playing on them and could probably find the last 5% with a B6. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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andybharms Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 633 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the responses. Even off-topic rambling is helpful. Like I said intonation is spot on. Response is flawless. Lots of good things. I've been playing a Yamaha Xeno for eight years and love it. I might just prefer the big blow. It is so dense and bright and wonderful. _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
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CRoberts8 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 833 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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C.E.Divine wrote: | Just an observation-
Dean Oaks currently sits at five posts.
Dean Oaks also posted a picc allegedly owned by Gerry Webster in the marketplace within the last 24 hours.
Sounds like he may be full of a lot of hot air. And not the kind used to play trumpet. He only needs to meet the post count to sell his picc, which if it was actually Gerry Webster's former picc, he would mention he has documentation. Or God forbid, actually upload a picture of proof. |
Dean is a legitimate person, more than competent player, and can likely outplay a good chunk of regular posters here. No need to jump to unsavory conclusions, C.E.Divine. |
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uglylips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2008 Posts: 777 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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I had a B5L and C3L that I played for many years. Great playing horns with excellent intonation. No problems in the upper register. However, if you moved the tuning bell out too far intonation and partials would get squirrely. Similar as if you move the tuning slide out too far, but with greater impact. The trick was learning to tune correctly with the bell and slide. The slots would change depending on how far out the bell was. The cool thing was that if you wanted it to be more stable, more like a braced model, just push the bell in all the way and only tune with the slide. I wish I still had these horns. They were both excellent in many ways, versatile, great sound and just awesome instruments to play. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:16 am Post subject: |
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CRoberts8 wrote: |
Dean is a legitimate person, more than competent player, and can likely outplay a good chunk of regular posters here. No need to jump to unsavory conclusions |
But obviously his capabilities are not in the field of tuningbell trumpets, neither Bach mouthpieces (other blunt post by the same person). |
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