Sovereign problems again

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 8:36 am Post subject:

Hi

I've just done a big mouthpiece trial on my Sovereign. It is just a case of resistance. Either this cornet has more resistance than my Xeno or possibly needs more air than a tighter piece will allow. My gut feeling is that rather than being stuffy, this is a cornet that just works better with a larger throat and or backbore

I thoroughly warmed up on my base set-up, Bach trumpet/Bach 3C.

I then got out my Sovereign and tried Curry 3BBC., 3TC. and 3DC.. I do not like the playability nof the 3BBC., at least on the Sovereign. 3TC. and 3DC. play and sound very similarly, until I played louder and higher, and the sound of the 3DC. became too bright in the way that my Bach 3C cannot, as it requires a delicate approach.

I kept out the 3TC., then started on the Denis Wicks. The 4B is too small and I preferred the sound and playability of the 3B over the discontinued DW3C.

I then tried the Bachs and Bach copies. Bach 3 is too tight, as is 3C top/Kanstul B10 backbore combination and 3C with B10 backbore and 25 throat. Have concluded that Bach10 backbore is just too tight on this cornet. Quite liked Bach 3B with Bach 7 backbore and slightly preferred Bach 5A with 24 backbore.

I quite like my Yamaha 16E also, and it played along the lines of the DW3B. Didn't however seem to suit the Sovereign as much as the Xeno.

Have concluded that there is nothing wrong with this cornet. Actually it is a very nice cirnet, but it needs a more open mouthpiece. I'm yet to decide between the Curry 3TC., Denis Wick 3B and Bach 5A as a brass band set-up (I have a feeling that the Bach 5A could do with the throat being opened up to a 24), and I've decided to have the throat opened up on my 3C top and B24 backbore as a concert band set-up. I thought that I'd try a 24 throat first.

Thanks very much for all your help.

Take Care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Sovereign problems again

Dieter Z · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 9:48 am Post subject:

Louise;

Next time you are in Spain on holiday, come and see me and try my French made 928. I am extremely happy with mine.
_________________
B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:42 am Post subject:

ford850 · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject:

Hey Lou,

Sounds like Dieter got the only good-playing Sovereign that has been made...thus far.
If you reread my "Sovereign issues" post I think you may find some things to look for in your horn. From what little I've seen the Besson quality control is still pretty bad. I put a lot of time and work in taming my French-made Sovereign and it is a pretty good player now but I recently played a new one at a local store and it has serious "issues" for a three thousand dollar horn and doesn't play nearly as well as my "repaired" horn.
I haven't read the entire thread but has anyone else played your Sovereign and if so what was their opinion of its playability?
From what I've read I certainly suspect it is not a mouthpiece problem but a problem that may be minimized by mouthpiece choice. Good luck!
_________________
Mark LaSavio
Shires CVLA
Kanstul Destino Bb
Getzen Renaissance 20S
Stomvi Master Bb cornet
Belcanto C

Dieter Z · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:24 pm Post subject:

What kind of 'repairs' did you do to your cornet?

Mine was a store demo, so maybe it was more carefully chosen by the distributor.
_________________
B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing

Louise Finch · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 2:23 am Post subject:

FrankM · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 3:38 am Post subject:

If the manufacturer is freely admitting the pads under the caps are too thick & breezily telling you to wait until they bed in, then I wouldn't have much faith in the felts that govern the upstroke either. You can get an idea by removing the 3rd slide & the 3rd valve & looking down the tubes to see how the middle valve sits on the upstroke. You'll need a pencil light. If it turns out that both up & down strokes are out because of the felts, you need to fix that first. I'm not talking a precision valve alignment here. If they are out, your eyes are good enough to see the problem.

Cheers, Frank
_________________
Fairly large collection. Favourites:-
Eclipse Bb Tpt
Yamaha 6335H Bb Tpt
Besson Meha Bb Tpt
Selmer 99 Radial
Conn Connstelation 36B
Conn Connstelation 28A
B&H Sovereign Cornet
Yamaha 635T Flugel Horn.

Andy Del · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 5:21 am Post subject:

ford850 · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 6:32 am Post subject:

Dieter....most of my saga is documented in this thread http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133640
To summarize I bought a used Sovereign, made in France, which did not play well at all. Much of the cornet's tubing did not line up and there were large steps inside the bore of the horn so I took a round file and smoothed all of those steps out....removing a bunch of metal in the process. This was true in most of the slides as well. None of the ends of the tubing had been cleaned up and the edges were rough which also restricted air flow and created turbulence ..these had to be cleaned up too. The mouthpiece receiver was not set all the way onto to the leadpipe so I reset it, moving it in .330" I also put a temporary brace on the lower end of the leadpipe to the third valve slide which helps intonation above the staff.

Lou, any of the above things can be checked on your horn and if you find an obvious problem this is something that Besson will fix if it is still under warranty.
_________________
Mark LaSavio
Shires CVLA
Kanstul Destino Bb
Getzen Renaissance 20S
Stomvi Master Bb cornet
Belcanto C

Dieter Z · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 6:43 am Post subject:

So you took a round file and smoothed all of those steps out....removing a bunch of metal in the process.

How did you do that?
_________________
B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing

Louise Finch · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 7:50 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 8:00 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 8:02 am Post subject:

Crazy Finn · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:19 am Post subject:

RandyTX · Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:28 am Post subject:

You need to convince some university in England to host an ITG meeting over there. Then you could sample hundreds of different models one after another and find something that really works for you.

BTW, I wouldn't argue with a manufacturer about valve alignment. If they felt like it was important, they'd do them before they left the factory, not give you that old, lame argument about waiting for pads to "break in". I guess all the people getting paid for valve alignments are glad they don't, but at some point, you'd think at least a few of the larger volume builders would start down that path. Currently, it's only a few very small makers that do valve alignments before delivering the horn.
_________________
"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."