tight neck

[_trumpetgod_02]

Derek,

You have not put me on the defensive here. I have laid out my thoughts on the subject and so have you. I don't think that we agree (we can agree to disagree though). I am just wondering how much of a close up do you get in those DVD's that you are wathcing? Is it at any distance that would be feasable to notice something like that? I'll have to go back and read those articles too. But I agree with the above that a FREELY expanding neck is a sign of relaxation.

It has been an interesting conversation though,
Nick
_________________
www.trumpetherald.com

[Derek Reaban]

John D.

You Wrote:
My neck also puffs out some when I play, as does the neck of every player I know. To me this is a good thing, a sign that the throat is relaxed and free of tension. If you increase the air pressure pushing on soft tissue (the inside of your throat) it has to expand if it is relaxed. This is pure physics. If it doesn't, it is being constricted in some way (tension).

I will certainly agree with your conclusion that “If you increase the air pressure pushing on soft tissue (the inside of your throat) it has to expand if it is relaxed. This is pure physics.” However, I don’t entirely agree with your follow-up statement, “If it doesn't, it is being constricted in some way (tension)”. I guess that could be one possible conclusion, but not the one that I would arrive at.

You said, “if you increase the air pressure”. Let’s consider that statement for a moment, because it can have two different interpretations. As you increase the playing register on the trumpet, pressure increases (I think we all agree on that point). If you meet that pressure by trying to maintain a similar flow rate from the low register, the air is going to back up (increased pressure – not a good kind), and if your throat is relaxed it will expand. That increased “air pressure pushing on soft tissue (the inside of your throat)” is the main point that John Hagstrom addresses in his article (earlier in this discussion). He says, “Even so, the player may improperly conclude that it was the quantity of air that made the difference, when it really was the immediacy and the compression of the air that were responsible for the improvements.” If you missed it he also said, “much less air quantity actually goes into the trumpet and horns, especially in the high register”.

With a reduced flow rate in the upper register (the horn won’t accept it anyway so it is more efficient NOT to try to provide it), combined with immediacy, compression (this is the good kind of pressure – i.e. faster air by aligning a smaller resonant oral cavity with the upper register), and a strong and healthy mental image of what the player is trying to sound like this backpressure should be significantly reduced and the neck should not swell so much.

So instead of concluding that, “if it doesn't (swell), it is being constricted in some way (tension)” my conclusion would be more like this:

• With a reduced flow rate provided by the player in the upper register (coupled with a sound image with clarity and intensity and alignment with the center of the instrument), there is a reduction of neck swelling. That’s my personal experience, not necessarily right or wrong, just different!

Nick,

The close-ups in the CSO DVDs that I have are impressive. Sometime’s you will see a full screen image of Herseth and Hagstrom. Ridenhour gets several full screen close-ups. In the Mahler 5 DVD there are many close-ups of Herseth. Occasionally the camera catches the breath before an entrance, and this is where you can clearly see that there just isn’t much expansion (size during the breath compared to size while playing).


Good conversation!


_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona

[ This Message was edited by: derek reaban on 2003-10-23 18:27 ]

[Derek Reaban]

Everhigher (Al),

Thanks for the nice comments. I'm here to learn just like everybody else. If we all really listen to what's being said, there is much more opportunity for us to grow as players (and as individuals). I have 3 little boys at home (5, 3, and 1), and the two older boys always are getting into fights about who is "right". I could care less who is right! I much prefer for them to be kind to each other! I believe that it much more important to treat people with respect than it is to be right.

Take care,


_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona

[ This Message was edited by: Derek Reaban on 2003-10-23 18:28 ]

[jpdtpt]

I'm still enjoying this conversation. Great posts from all, and no offense taken or implied!

Even if I'm not playing trumpet and I blow air, I have increased the air pressure, or the air wouldn't move. Higher pressure air (inside) wants to go to where there is less pressure (outside), even if the difference is minute. Even with this tiny pressure difference, my throat expands if I am relaxed. When I blow out a candle, play flute, or any time I form a firm aperture to increase the focus and or speed of my airstream, my throat expands. Whether I play trumpet pppp or fff, there is expansion. I can see where this would happen to a greater or lesser degree in everyone, but I think it does happen if you are relaxed.

Just to be very clear, for possible younger players reading all this, this expansion is NOT the neck tightening, ligament and tendon exposing expansion which will destroy your sound. If your neck expands to reveal your ligament and tendons like tight rubber bands in your neck, that is not the relaxed, slight ballooning that should happen.

If this is what is happening to you da roadrunner, it is a problem and you need to correct it with the guidance of your instructor. if its not, and you play with a relaxed throat, I say don't worry about it too much or it will effect your playing when you conciously try to 'control' your neck muscles, etc.

Play well, everyone!

John D.

[LeeC]

Read this carefully all. I know neck puffs from personal experience and nearly lost the ability to play the trumpet seven years ago due to neck strain. To this day I have difficulty swallowing larger quantities of food because of my former injury.

A neck puff can either be no problem or a BIG PROBLEM. Also, if you puff and feel OK today, you might eventually rupture some portion of your neck cartiledge in future years like I did. I used to neck puff for TWENTY SIX YEARS with not much more than occasional discomfort. Then in 1997 while playing the lead book in a rehearsal I stretched something inside my throat while blowing a very loud high note phrase in "Spain". Afterwards I had to leave the session for the night as I couldn't even blow a low C without neck pain.

The next day I had pain while talking, and eating. Couldn't even blow my nose let alone play the trumpet. Thought I was finished playing the trumpet for good.

Fortunately I remembered reading some "Neck Puff Eradication Exercises" on pages 69 - 70 in my dusty old copy of Reinhardt's "Encyclopedia of the Pivot System". These exercises REALLY WORK, but must be done regularly in order to maintain strength in the neck muscles. Still another cross some of us trumpet players have to bear.

My trumpet playing recovery from the neck puff problem was relatively quick. Within two weeks I was playing trombone again and playing the lead trumpet book in about a month. There hasn't been that much of a recovery in my swallowing technique though. Not much of a problem since I just swallow smaller bites at a time. Take it slow if you do fall into problems with your neck. Careers have been totally lost due to neck injuries.

I am telling you that you want to at least learn how to contol your neck muscles in the event that your puffing becomes physically detrimental. Why wait to you're almost ruined? True some people have no problem at all with the puff. I hear that Lin Biviano still puffs and has no problem and of course Lin is even older than me. BUT, why run the risk?

You''l be inclined to neck puff if you play a lot in the upper register and or do a lot of loud playing. Chris LaBarbera on the Reinhardt forum has some interesting info on this matter too. Maybe we can get Chris to print out the Reinhardt puff eradication exercises here on the web.

Noted Neck Puffers in the trumpet world:

Lin Biviano. Large full neck puff.

Bill Chase. HUGE full neck puff. Seeing his puff in concert was almost a distraction from his playing.

Al Hirt. The reason he wore a beard.

TAKE CARE folks! Puffing can possibly ruin not only your trumpet playing but your physical health too.

Lee Cahalan

[ This Message was edited by: leesbrass on 2003-10-25 04:21 ]

[plp]

Gentlemen, thank you for demonstrating how a true exchange of ideas is supposted to take place. Derek, thanks for the excellent links, some very good information.
I have a quick question. Some of the players you mentioned as neck puffers also have a history (Bill Chase in particular) of passing out or blacking out. Do you think the neck puffing taken to an extreme is constricting blood flow to the brain?
After reading the Science of Breath, and really concentrating on air velocity as opposed to air volume, I began visualizing an 'inverted tornado', or the airstream condensing and thru diaphramic constriction being forced up through the center of the air mass. This worked great until I applied this to increased range. The good news is I hit the highest notes I have ever played. The bad news was, after I came to, I decided maybe this needs to go on the back burner until the rest of my body adapts to be able to take the strain. I noticed a stiff neck for the next day or so, which ties this diatribe into the subject at hand.
I was taught that a small amount of neck puffing is OK for some people, but is inefficient, as that energy should be coming out of the bell, rather than swelling the neck. My opinion of why it worked for Dizzy is that he utilized his oral cavity as a 'third lung', and if you watch the videos of his playing in the early days, you will notice the swelling in the cheeks and neck would decrease as he played higher, suggesting he was gaining velocity by constricting those muscles in much the same manor as the dreaded tongue arch works for us mere mortals.

[LeeC]

I don't think the neck puff results in passing out PLP. Passing out is caused by the prevention of blood flow to the brain which in turn is caused by the blood flow constriction induced by extreme air pressure in the head. Think of what happens to the pulse in your wrist if you squeeze your lower arm hard enough. That's what happens to the brain while holding high notes, especially loud ones, for an extended period of time. I think the same thing happens to jet pilots experiencing heavy G forces during accelleration.

Fortunately for the trumpet player the problem is relieved when he stops holding high notes or playing extended passages upstairs. Of course "passing out" solves the problem too (lol).

Now that I no longer puff my neck significantly I still have to watch out for doing too much high noting relative to my physical shape. Suppose I could pass out even without puffing my neck, but I watch it. There's no need to play all lead phrases in the high octave everytime they're being rehearsed. What I do is show the conductor one or two times that I got the notes. Then if he wants to keep rehearsing a section I take the phrase down an octave. Why kill myself just because the director is trying to get the sax section to play their music correctly?

Headaches are related to extreme air build up too though I'm not sure what causes the pain. I used to get shooting temporary headaches after letting go of a held high note like say a high F or something. Don't get these as severely anymore but they can occur and limit my physical endurance (ie pain) over a long rehearsal doing a lead book. In fact one of the ways I know I'm in shape is when I'm not getting the headaches as much during a gig or a rehearsal.

For those of you that do get headaches right after you let go of a high note phrase you might try continuing to blow compressed air against your closed mouth for another few seconds or so. This helps the brain "decompress" (just like the BENDS in scuba diving).

Of course the described decompression technique may not be very good for you, but perhaps your doctor would say that even playing high notes isn't so good for you either. I really feel pressure and some pain in my eyes during and after a heavy playing session too.

In the past I used to have this irrational fear or having an aneurism while playing high notes. Kinda like the way some people really stress about getting cancer and stuff. I asked my doctor about this one time and he he said in a cheery voice: "Well if you do have one (stroke or aneurism) while playing the trumpet, don't worry about it. You'll be dead so quick that you won't suffer long". The guy then laughed, and said that it'd be a "damn good way to check out".

I changed doctors soon after.

Lee Cahalan

[ This Message was edited by: leesbrass on 2003-10-25 11:46 ]

[Irving]

I used to work with a very fine bassoon player that had a huge neck puff whenever he would play, regardless of the register. Interesting that neck puffs can also occur with instruments that play in the lower register, where there is much less back pressure.

[plp]

Now that I think about it , most double reed players I have observed do the same thing. There was a girl back when I was in high school that played oboe, really cute fair skinned blonde, that would turn red as a beet when she played. The bassoon player that did the Messiah with our community choir would stand his bowtie horizontal at the performances. Maybe it's a high backpressure thing. Come to think about it, I had my SB system plugged in when I blacked out.

[John Mohan]

You write that your neck puffs up and tightens up. These are two totally unrelated things.

There is nothing wrong with your neck puffing up. This is the normal reaction of elastic tissue to increased air pressure. It happens to everybody to some extent.

As for the neck tension, that is due to you straining and tensing up muscles that are not involved in tone production. As in "grunting" perhaps. Proper practice and time will solve this problem.

The best advice I can give you is to seek out and study with someone who studied with Claude Gordon and is totally familiar with his method if you want to improve and become a great player. I am not that person as I am at this time totally involved in playing for a living (quite successfully as a result of studying with Claude Gordon).

Sincerely,

John Mohan

_________________
1st Trumpet - Last Trumpet (Only Trumpet) for the European Tour of "Grease" 2003
Former 1st Trpt "West Side Story", "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera", "Evita", Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame" (2nd trpt), etc.
14 Year Student of Claude Gordon


Hi I'm back again,

I suppose it's not accurate to write that neck puffing and neck straining are "two totally unrelated things" as they both are a result of trumpet playing. What I meant is that while one (puffing up) is normal, the other (straining and also pain) are NOT normal if one is playing and practicing correctly.

JM

[ This Message was edited by: John Mohan on 2003-10-25 22:09 ]

[pair of kings]

lee, this happened (aneurism) to a guy I went to school with 25 years ago. He didn't die until about 2 years ago. It happened while playing. Totally messed him up to where he would wander off, forgetting who he was for long periods. Once he was in Florida and they figured out who he was from something he said about phi mu alpha sinfonia. tough story. He never played again though, he still loved to go to concerts and listen.

sorry to stray from the original topic.
good exchange going here.
There was an old timer in our area with about the best reputation around for years, had a huge neck puff. And it sort of became permanent in his later years. He studied with Maggio and taught of of the CG books. He had a sound, WOW just big and fat and beautiful. didn't sense any straining ever.

[da_roadrunner]

thank you for all of your help. i've started using derek's way to "center" the sound and it seems to be working like a charm. i just did some in front of the mirror playing and it seems that most of my neck puff is gone. and somehow my range expanded when i started doing that too (of course that could be other things as well... i don't know yet) thanks again for all the input.

[Derek Reaban]

da_roadrunner,

Well, first of all I have to say thanks for responding! It’s nice to get feedback from the person that asked the original question. I’m glad the information has proved helpful.

As a brief review, my advice was:

1) Spend several minutes each day playing the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination (with the tuning slide out of the instrument) using breath attacks (Bill Adam).
2) Applying this feel to the instrument to find the “center” using the 6-Note exercise while applying breath attacks (Caruso/Findley)

Now, and this is VERY important, lets consider how to move forward and continue to maintain some positive results from this advice. Since your original motivation was to solve a painful neck-swelling problem, I know that you will want to make sure that you continue on a path that will focus on pain-free performance. I read some of the other stories that were presented in this topic and based on their experiences I am so thankful that I stumbled across this advice myself and put it into play in my daily practicing. I wouldn’t ever want to have to go through any of those scary experiences!

My pursuit of playing to the center of the instrument was to find more resonance in my sound. You are coming at it from a different angle, but I think these are some points that will help you. As John Hagstrom said in his article,

• “Progress is the result of new awareness in balance with repeated experience. The first step is to be aware of what improvements you are looking for and having the intensity of concentration to sustain that conception as you make repeated attempts. When you are successful and are able to recreate your success over and over again, new habits begin to form, but they are crude at first. It generally takes a year to take yourself from crudity to mastery when forming a new habit. Mastery is what is needed to be professionally competent and competitive. It is when you can perform a given task consistently well under pressure – without having a second chance.”

Those are powerful words! You have taken the first step of “awareness” related to these concepts, especially the idea of playing to the center of the instrument. However, “having the intensity of concentration to sustain the conception as you make repeated attempts” is the real challenge here. You conceptually understand that playing to the center of the horn is beneficial and provides you with the improvement that you are looking for (in your case reduction of neck swelling). But how do you maintain the “intensity of concentration to sustain the conception”? The problem with getting advice (on the Internet, from a method book, or even from a teacher) is moving from understanding it to making it an integral part of the fabric of your playing (that’s a HUGE jump). As time moves on and you forget reading these words, your “intensity of concentration” related to this concept will also fade away. That’s why it’s so important to drive yourself through practice to establish a positive new habit!

Since you are in high school, consider this example about understanding a concept versus “knowing” something so well that you can provide the answer consistently and immediately “under pressure – without having a second chance”. We all know our multiplication tables. I think I made one when I was in 3rd or 4th grade. I remember we were required to make a 10 x 10 matrix but I decided to make mine 12 x 12 (I guess I always did a little more than was required). Think about how well you know your multiplication table. Some answers are immediate and require absolutely no hesitation, (i.e. 2x2, 5x5, 10x10). There are some combinations, however, that you may pause for a moment before answering, because you are applying more steps of mental activity to arrive at the answer. For instance, consider 8x7 and 9x6. The answers are 54 and 56, but which is which? I always pause and think of the little trick that all numbers multiplied by 9 will lead to a product where you can sum the numbers and get to 9. So 9x6 is 54 because 5 plus 4 equals 9. Therefore, 8x7 must be 56. The thought process isn’t nearly as clean as just knowing the answer like 5x5 equals 25. The same situation exists for some of the other “more difficult” answers. Instead of practicing to the point of “knowing” the answers, I ended up developing a longer thought process to get to the answer. Let’s say 12x9. I would simplify the problem into several pieces and then apply this thought process: 10x9 is 90 and 2x9 is 18 so 90+18 is 108. That’s three steps to get to the answer. I would think that those extra steps really don’t take that much time and that I really know the multiplication tables well because I can get to any answer in less than a second or two. However, the whole point of this example is that understanding the concept versus “knowing” the answer will be VERY quickly uncovered when you find yourself under pressure. Check out http://www.petrouska.com/ConcentrationCharts.htm to get a feel for experiencing this high-pressure environment through the use of these concentration charts and a metronome. By increasing the metronome tempo you will quickly understand that "pressure" will force you to rely on what has been programmed into your subconscious. You don't have time to go through extra mental steps when the pressure is on!

To move from understanding the concept to “knowing” the concept of playing to the center of the instrument so well that it is deeply ingrained in my playing, I have chosen to use the James Thompson Buzzing Basics exercises on a daily basis. These exercises are extremely well conceived and allow me to rely on someone else to provide “the intensity of concentration to sustain that conception”. For about 20 minutes everyday (after the Adam and Caruso exercises that I described to you), I spend time finding the center of the horn via the Buzzing Basics exercises. By doing this, I have essentially made a commitment to myself that this concept is vitally important to the way that I want to approach the instrument so I must spend about a year to move from “crudity to mastery”. In the 7 months that I have focused my mental efforts on this aspect of my playing I have found that playing to the center eventually leads to enhanced vibrancy that is nothing short of magical!

The whole point to practice, as far as I see it, is to break the different aspects of playing into small enough pieces so that the focused conscious thought that I apply during the practice session will drive that “correct” desired result deep into my subconscious. With enough repetitions, the subconscious will then be in control with respect to those aspects of playing that should be on auto pilot so that I can focus my conscious thought on more important things like making music!

If you’re interested in reading about my experiences with Buzzing Basics, check out a conversation that I had with Roddy on TPIN related to vibrancy and some comments about the successful implementation of these exercises here on the Trumpet Herald:

Conversation with Roddy:
http://tpin.dana.edu/pipermail/tpin/2003-October/012124.html

Comments on using Buzzing Basics:
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=12702&forum=2

So the quote that I mentioned earlier from James Stamp really does make great sense here. "Stamp believed that one of the keys to a good upper register was to play the middle register in the center of the horn and to not allow a large amount of accumulated lip and body tension to creep into the middle register.” The way that Jim Thompson has structured his exercises makes this happen without me even having to think about it. That’s pretty amazing to me!

I hope this will give you some tangible ideas to allow you to make this change in your playing permanent!

Best of luck to you!


_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona

[ This Message was edited by: derek reaban on 2003-10-29 12:10 ]

[Derek Reaban]

In case you are interested in Buzzing Basics, you can find it here:

http://www.editions-bim.com/view.asp?DomID=82

Scroll down and click on THOMPSON James. After his bio you will see in red letters at the bottom of the page "see all works of this composer". Click on that and then choose TP 216.


_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona

[ This Message was edited by: Derek Reaban on 2003-10-27 14:25 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Derek Reaban on 2003-10-27 14:28 ]

[hazmat]

See, a lot of people have this problem. Or is it a problem? When I started experimenting two or three years ago with opening my throat (not my MP) my mouth my aperture and letting more air through the same started to happen. And if you watch most of the best trumpet players... this happens as well. Tell any critics to play what you just did as well as you had and then if they can't tell them not to criticize.