Darkest cornet with a shallow mouthpiece?

ljazztrm

So what are people's opinion on the darkest sounding cornet with using a shallow mouthpiece?

I find it very easy to make most well made cornets sound very dark with the right mouthpiece - but much more difficult to find an actual dark sounding horn when played with a shallow mouthpiece. In my talks with various trumpet/brass makers over the years, they have confirmed this to me as well.

So far, the feedback I've gotten from colleagues and some research on the internet is that the Stomvi Master Titanium cornet is an instrument that gets a naturally quite dark sound. I was curious if there were any serious cornet players around the TH who have experience and opinions on this matter. Thanks and all the best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

shofarguy · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:45 am Post subject:

I have noticed and written in threads here before that, because of the large bell taper of Wild Thing instruments, a player can match the tone of conventional horns with less mouthpiece cup volume. In your particular case, I believe you should consider the Flip Oakes Wild Thing Shepherd's Crook Short Cornet.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

djpearlman · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:47 am Post subject:

The current model Lawler cornet can also play quite dark even with a moderately shallow mouthpiece like a Schilke 13C4.
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Dan Pearlman
Santa Fe, NM

- Monette Cornette
- Andalusia Cornet
- Carolbrass Pocket Trumpet
- Monette mouthpieces

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5NafoVeXrsRm-fOhKaIpnA

ljazztrm · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:55 am Post subject:

Thanks guys - these two were actually the other ones I was meaning to look into - thanks for the reminder!
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6189

I have had very good results with the Laskey PIC cornet-shank mouthpiece on a Yamaha Xeno cornet.

ljazztrm · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:04 pm Post subject:

Thanks etc - should of mentioned but am writing 'shorthand' from my BlackBerry, I will be mainly playing this cornet with my trumpet top partially screwed into a cornet backbore. Best. Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

chuck in ny · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:01 pm Post subject:

i think the WT long american cornet is in that category as flip gives the option of getting it with a curry DC. i am not sure you can go shallower than a DC. the DC is going to be deeper than your trumpet mpc.
the partially unscrewed scheme, you are again going where no man has gone before.

edit. was that a DC or a TC cornet piece.

jadickson · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:18 pm Post subject:

I have a like-new Lawler cornet for sale in the marketplace right now that would be perfect for you

ljazztrm · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:45 pm Post subject:

Cha!! I'll tell you Chuck, my partially unscrewed trick is GREAT! My situation now is experimenting with the MF protocol by Lynn Nicholson - and I found that my MF GH mouthpiece actually has been facilitating my chops to function differently than other mouthpieces. So this is a fun project for me to see how dark I can go while still using the GH MF top. Of course I could never do this without my trick, as this mouthpiece is such a powerhouse when it's totally screwed into the backbore.

ja - Thanks man - I saw you're beautiful horn in the marketplace. My budget is around $1,500 - I still wouldn't be surprised if I could get a used Lawler or WT horn for that. I have found over the last few years of buying and selling trumpets that I am unique in the respect that I have no care for what the outward appearance of a horn is. (Of course your horn looks beautiful from the pics I saw) I was actually shocked at how many players care about how a horn looks..I can't believe the price I got my current main Bb for, just because the outside looks pretty bad (I guess at least to most people). But, mechanically and playing wise, it's an amazing player. For me, being a pro freelancer, I take my horns everywhere - and some places they do get knocked around a little bit - it's just the nature of what I do and some of the places I work and situations I get into sometimes.. Best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

cornet74 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504

ljazztrm · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:59 pm Post subject:

Hey Cornet - thanks for the input - I'm a hardcore jazz cat as well - wish I studied w Woody! I was only 12 when he died - Have you shared any experiences on the TH with him? Would love to hear.

In talking with some of the top trumpet/cornet/flugel makers, we have discussed this and it is much harder apparently to make a naturally darker sounding instrument rather than just modifying the mouthpiece. But it can, and has, been done.

This is just an experiment for me - I don't really need the cornet as I usually just play trumpet and flugel - so I got that covered. I don't need the cornet to make a living, but it would be a nice 'third voice' to add and I would wind up using it on gigs I'm sure. I believe that I can get a darker sound with the right cornet and my mouthpiece trick - yes, you still might hear the shallower mouthpiece articulation - but - still. It's not that I couldn't switch to another cornet mouthpiece, but I don't want to - I would just use the flugelhorn. Just by my current experiments I know getting a unique sound that sounds good for jazz is possible with what I'm doing. Best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

cornet74 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504

Continuing from my post above:

I have an B&h globe stamp Sov. That's a dark horn. When I use anything shallower than a DC you can hear it. Meaning you can hear that I'm trying to get away with something that can't be cotton away from.

A bad comparison...but...

What would Phil Smith sound like doing his NY Phil. gig sound like using a Custom VB 1E?? First he'd never do it. Or even think of it.

I'm afraid you're looking for an easy answers to a very complex problem.

start with the DC and work your way deeper. Just by way of example I was working with a Curry VC, BBC, and a Wick B this week. But I could never have done that even two years ago with any success. I've taken it a step further and practice on a sop everyday as well.

Hard work is the only answer. Nothing good come fast or easy. Easocially with the cornet played with the proper gear.

Thank you.
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Now:
Yamaha 203 Tenor Horn
Bach, Wick, Yamaha Mouthpieces
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ljazztrm · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:08 pm Post subject:

You should re-read what I wrote. You're not telling me anything I don't know. I make a very good living playing the trumpet full-time with a lot of jazz included.

There's a guy on another thread - a few threads actually - currently making an absolute fool of himself because he has to be right at any cost and isn't really reading other people's replies. Those cats responding to him are really patient to even respond. I stopped reading his posts altogether. You seem much more together, but I would recommend reading more carefully what other people are writing to understand where they are coming from. Best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

cornet74 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504

cornet74 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504

ljazztrm · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then - Brian Lynch is an awesome player. I have a few of his wonderful albums. Yeah, I do like the flugelhorn and used it exclusively on my own album several years back which you can hear clips of in my link - but I used a very non-traditional flugel mouthpiece and even put a washer in the mouthpiece - so that sounds like two strikes against me with you already - using a flugelhorn and a crazy mouthpiece!

It's ok, you can write a bad review of it - I haven't sold a copy in years - to my knowledge.. unless the cat who put the site up for me has been pocketing the profits

_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

cornet74 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504

cornet74 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504

Louise Finch · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:02 am Post subject:

Hi Lex

I have only read half of the replies being in a bit of a hurry, so please accept my apologies if anyone has already said what I am writing.

I've experimented with relatively shallow mouthpieces on cornet (Although admittedly my Bach 3C is probably a toilet bowl ion terms of overall cup volume compared to some of the mouthpieces you have previously mentioned on other TH threads, although maybe your MF isn't that shallow, I don't know). I've personally found that brass band orientated short model cornets, play very stuffy with trumpet-style mouthpieces. I believe that they are designed to be played with brass band style-cornet mouthpieces, with very deep cups, open throats, and large backbores.

I have found that the Besson Sovereign plays like it has a sock stuffed in it for me with a Bach 3C. The Yamaha Xeno plays well for me with a 3C, but with a Kanstul two piece set-up, which inserts further in the receiver, and is equivalent to it having less gap.

In my experience, unless you don't mind a lot more resistance than I am happy with, I reckon that you either need a long model cornet that is more likely to play well with a shallower cup (but is probably less likely to have a darker sound. However, although you are not looking for a student horn, I've heard that the long model Yamaha 2310 has a darker sound than the short model Yamaha 2330), or a more free blowing short model cornet, or a short model cornet which isn't so brass band orientated.

It is not achieving a dark sound which I personally find difficult with a more brass band orientated cornet, as I have a naturally dark sound anyhow, but dealing with the high level of resistance, which I always presume is built in to balance with an open brass band-style cornet mouthpiece. As always, your mileage may vary.

Take Care

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

delano · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:33 am Post subject:

Nice thread.
First, I am a typical hobby player with a lot of interest in equipment because I like horns in general and cornets a little bit more.
Some remarks:
I like the typo fresh horn (by cornet74), nice name for the instrument
Second: I own several Curry mp's for cornet (and trumpet) and I don't think the DC is able of darkening the sound, in fact I think it's quite a bright sounding mp.
I doubt that the VC is fitted for jazz, it's a little bit a Wicklike mp without the depth of the Wickies, more soft, lighter sound and (may be only for me) quite difficult to play, may be only playable with a very good amplifier system. The BBC is IMO the best one. But this is still no answer to the OP's question.
Though the real cornet players consider it an atrocity I think its completely legitimate for an improvising musician to experiment with shallow pieces on a cornet. The result is what counts and if you find the necessary sound on a cornet with a shallow piece it's the way to go. BTW I play often my cornets with a Warburton 4M cup but mostly because it's my trumpetcup and I don't like to change too often.
But Louise Finch may be right. IN GENERAL SC cornets don't like shallow mp's. I don't know about the Stomvi Master Titanium (what an unbelievable beautiful cornet to look at) and more others but the ones I played wouldn't sing with a shallow piece.
Even my Conn 36A which has no SC but is close to a SC cornet don't like them.
But the Yamaha 2310 (not the modern one model II) or an older 231 reacts very good with a shallow piece (I think Warren Vaché plays something like that), BTW the 2310 has an enormous bell that makes it more difficult to play, especially in the high register. Lots of compliments for mr. Vaché.
The best cornet I know for your purpose is IMO the Conn 80A, it's really the poor man's flumpet and plays EXCELLENT with (shallow) trumpet cups.
Last remark: sometime ago I was throwed up here when I was very critical about flugelhorns, I consider them more difficult tp play than trumpets, they need very serious practice, I doubt some use of them and so on. This only stops when mr. Sandoval finished it by warning everybody that the flugel is NOT a big trumpet.
It was a better formulation of what I tried to say.
So secretly I liked cornet74's "futilehorn" but he took some risk here.
For the record: I own a Conn 36A, a 80A, an Olds Ambassador cornet, a Yamaha 2310 (and a Selmer B700 tuning bell trumpet, a Concept TT, a Yamaha YTR 6345), mp's: Curry 8.5B for trumpet (sold a BC) and 8.5 DC, VC and BBC for cornet.
Nowadays I play on trumpet with a Warburton 4M with 5 or 7 bb, or a Yamaha14B4GP (on my B700)
On cornet a Warburton 4M or Arturo cup on 7 bb or custom (Kanstul made) short Conn shank bb.
My Curry BBC is SCS.