I've owned a lot of cornets, but with trumpet-class mouthpieces (in terms of cup depth) the little Getzen Capri I have plays with a very rich, yet dark core relative to other cornets I've owned. It responds well to the deeper cornet mouthpieces also. I'll not go into detail on my past cornet crusades, but goes from the extremes of a Bundy to a Besson and many in between. The Besson is clearly darker with the right mouthpiece, but I'm limiting my comments to cornets I've used with trumpet-class mouthpiece cups.
The recent production Eterna II I had was a nice horn also, reasonably priced (I went through Osmun), but noticeably heavier than the Capri and dark sounding. Over time I found I prefer the sound, projection, and agility of the older Capri I have (I've not played a current production Capri cornet). For all-around use, a Bach 6, Schilke 9 or even a 7C seems to work fine on this instrument and a rich, deeper core sound still manages to come through without sounding like a trumpet to my ear. I've never played it with a cup more shallow than that. I'm currently reconfiguring my recording gear with a more sensitive mic and ordered a new preamp to see how those fine differences in tone come through... one of many recording experiments I want to pursue. _________________ Bach C 239
Bach Bb 180-38, Melk MTV-525 leadpipe
Couesnon Flugelhorn
Boston 3 Star Cornet (1904)
Getzen 580 Cornet (1973)
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:22 am Post subject:
Thanks for all the recent and helpful comments guys. Yeah, Warren Vache first gave me the idea for getting a dark sound with a shallow piece on cornet. I remember when a buddy of mine and I were trying his cornet mouthpiece and were shocked at the shallow 'V' and how he got such a warm, buttery sound with it.
I used to have one of the Yamaha 'student' cornets he played - 2310 I think - great horn..I just wasn't playing any cornet at the time and not experimenting like now so I sold it - anyway the cat that got it plays a lot of cornet around town so I'm sure he's getting a lot of use out of it... I'm gonna go a different route this time anyway just for the sake of experimenting around with some new cornets. Some other ones I have in mind besides the Stomvi, Lawler and WT are an Olds Opera and the Besson Prestige. Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:58 am Post subject:
cornet - I don't know if my pm's went through - they seem to be stuck in my outbox - but just wanted to add that I think Tommy Turrentine was really underrated - heard some great early stuff by him..I know he head some personal issues or would of been more well known by players for sure - but I run in to cats around town who knew him every now and then. Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:48 am Post subject:
ljazztrm wrote:
I remember when a buddy of mine and I were trying his cornet mouthpiece and were shocked at the shallow 'V' and how he got such a warm, buttery sound with it.
Do you know what shallow V that mouthpiece was? (something like a Reeves SV cup?)
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:20 am Post subject:
Something like a Warburton 'SV' but was custom for him.
Well thanks to a local playing colleague who does a lot of cornet work, I have a Besson 2-20 on the way - I got an amazing deal on this used - so might be considering other possibilities as well. Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:59 am Post subject:
ljazztrm wrote:
Thanks for all the recent and helpful comments guys. Yeah, Warren Vache first gave me the idea for getting a dark sound with a shallow piece on cornet. I remember when a buddy of mine and I were trying his cornet mouthpiece and were shocked at the shallow 'V' and how he got such a warm, buttery sound with it.
I used to have one of the Yamaha 'student' cornets he played - 2310 I think - great horn..I just wasn't playing any cornet at the time and not experimenting like now so I sold it - anyway the cat that got it plays a lot of cornet around town so I'm sure he's getting a lot of use out of it... I'm gonna go a different route this time anyway just for the sake of experimenting around with some new cornets. Some other ones I have in mind besides the Stomvi, Lawler and WT are an Olds Opera and the Besson Prestige. Best, Lex
Hi Lex
With reference to you trying a Besson Prestige, it is just my personal experience, but I've found modern Besson Sovereign and Prestige cornets to work less well with shallow cornet mouthpieces than all the other cornets which I have tried.
My older Boosey and Hawkes Imperial works great with a 3C, so fingers crossed that your Besson 2-20 will also work well with your mouthpiece.
Take Care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:04 am Post subject:
Good to know - thanks Lou.. I think the cat who recommended the Besson to me does a lot of cornet work and he said he gets a really dark sound with it using his Warburton 5s.. So it could really fit the bill here. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:16 am Post subject:
ljazztrm wrote:
Good to know - thanks Lou.. I think the cat who recommended the Besson to me does a lot of cornet work and he said he gets a really dark sound with it using his Warburton 5s.. So it could really fit the bill here.
Hi Lex
You are very welcome. Since the previous owner found that it works well with a Warburton 5S, I think that you are unlikely to experience the issues which I have had trying to make a modern Besson Sovereign work with a shallower mouthpiece. Also, since the previous owner said that he can get a really dark sound on this cornet with a Warburton 5S, hopefully it will give you the sound which you are looking for with your mouthpiece.
Take Care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:42 am Post subject:
ljazztrm wrote:
Something like a Warburton 'SV' but was custom for him.
Well thanks to a local playing colleague who does a lot of cornet work, I have a Besson 2-20 on the way - I got an amazing deal on this used - so might be considering other possibilities as well. Best, Lex
It's an amazing horn.
The 28a is another great one. Here's a clip from a recent gig on the 28a. I play a Warburton 5s with it and my old Besson.
Yes, I know the quality sucks. I record all my gigs with my iPhone, and the onboard mic blows.
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:47 am Post subject:
Mike you sound awesome man - I'll definitely keep you in mind for my Fri night wall st capital grille gig when I need a sub. They'd love you down there! Thanks for posting it! _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:20 pm Post subject:
Cool deal man _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:49 pm Post subject:
i don't know how people get away with shallower cups on cornet or flugelhorn. the best i have been able to do is play the normal gear, but at a happy balance point, with cornet it's the curry BBC and with the flugel the curry FL. you could call that playing a deep cup until you have played flip oakes' pieces and then you can see the currys as being just right, neither too deep nor too shallow.
the one thing you can do to help yourself is to play the correct diameter. even slightly larger than is optimal for you will be dragging the brakes.
that is actually another balance point with diameter. then you have no recourse other than practice. the whole thing is a game of thousandths and good for people who sell mouthpieces.
this is how things go for the large majority of us. then when someone is sufficiently motivated the rules bend and they get a great orchestral sound with a 10C or like lex they play minute sizes and that isn't good enough there must be other ways to reduce cup volume. with mouthpieces you can get your sound on nearly anything, a new piece will sound out of place initially maybe with a shallow cup and then your chops slowly adjust and learn to produce your sound concept. there's a lot of magic in that and also a lot of work. for a player like me it's easier to play middle of the road architecture pieces and put the work in slowly building strength.
lex not only goes on quests you don't think can be done but also ones you wouldn't think of in the first place. there is definitely room for exploration in this realm. i have the fixed idea that playing an ultra small practice piece doing scales and such a few minutes here and there would improve chop control and articulation and haven't been motivated or solvent enough to do much about it.
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:26 pm Post subject:
Hey Chuck, there's also a person's physiology to consider. I have pretty thin lips and don't play with any lip intrusion. So a small diameter to me is pretty darn small and a shallow cup is very shallow. There could be some players who have thick lips and play with a lot of lip intrusion where a 3C would be small and shallow. That being said, I don't know of any real screaming high note players that use a 3C (without an embouchure shift, I know several who can with an embouchure shift), but I am aware of some very solid lead players with G's and A's that can wail on a 3C all night. I think it's really important to find a diameter and depth that can work efficiently for the way you play - and I think there is some leeway in this. For example I can play much more efficiently and powerfully on diameters that are in the .630 - .590 range. Sure, I can go a lot bigger and smaller than this but, if I do, I start to lose power to my sound. If I go bigger, my endurance also suffers. I can get a big sound in the middle and low range, but starting to go above high C or so, the sound starts to get softer. If I go smaller, my sound starts to narrow down and lose breadth to it. So it is very practical and necessary for me to stay in the range I mentioned. Even though I played a 11/4C and 3C in college, I couldn't play the lead book powerfully and my range had a high E or F ceiling to it. I could play classical orchestral stuff very powerfully and also jazz in the normal ranges of the horn. Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:12 am Post subject:
lex
not much to do about one's physiology. i can see you are playing small diameter but not crazy small and you fall within a normal variation.
my lips have gotten thinner with age although they have plenty of area to seat the mouthpiece comfortably. pops changed my embouchure to a whistle/smooch/roll out. as the inner lips come forward the lips become fuller. it's if anything a bit more comfortable mouthpiece seat although the buzz area is of course very small. i wonder if you have had a similar experience with this.
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:04 am Post subject:
Oh, that's good! Can't go wrong with Pops' stuff - Yes, my experience is that it is more comfortable to ascend into the extreme upper register with the lips 'unfurling' as Lynn says - It automatically causes me to use my air more and takes tension off the chops this way. It just has a much more relaxed feel as I continue to develop playing this way. Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Old Conn cornets tend to get a dark sound, to me, also. I have a beat up old 12a that sounds like chocolate syrup no matter what mouthpiece you use. And the ubiquitous 80a should be on the list too.
Mike is an old friend of mine and I mean absolutely NO disrespect to him or anyone else in this thread, because Mike is 100x the musician that I am and I am sure he's right / I'm wrong. But it has always confused me when he describes his Beson 2-20 as "dark". I actually bought one on eBay based on his recommendation, and I have listened to Mike play his 2-20 on youtube videos... and that sound is certainly "not bright," but not "dark" either to me. Just kind of a normal, focused, good tone quality.
Not sure what my point is, except I have been following this thread with great interest but have found it confusing. I feel like I am missing something with the word "dark." Makes me wonder if I am listening to the wrong things in my own sound.
I wonder if "dark" gets confused with "diffuse" to some people... like me...
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject:
Hi
My own personal idea of dark is a British brass band cornet sound. To me, this is a type of sound rather than an overall level of brightness. To me, although a great player, Trent sounds more like a trumpet on his first mouthpiece, and more like a flugel on the second. Neither to me sound like a British brass band cornet sound. However, it is for me that dark conjures up a British Brass band cornet tone. Nobody else is mentioning brass band cornet playing on this thread.
I personally think that cornets vary a lot more in inherent sound than trumpets. My Bach 184ML to my ears, responds to mouthpieces like a trumpet, and sounds trumpet-like with a Bach C cup and moves towards the flugel direction with a deeper mouthpiece.
My Besson Sovereign and Yamaha Xeno have a British Brass band cornet tone with a deeper mouthpiece, which is my idea of dark. Warm and buttery as a description, as Lex describes Warren Vache's cornet sound, is not my personal idea of the description of a dark cornet sound, but I haven't listened to Warren Vache, so he could still have my idea of a dark cornet sound, but I'd just use different words to describe it, if that makes sense.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:52 am Post subject:
The traditional (i.e. pre 1970's) sound of brass band cornets is something I have tried to analyse from listening to recordings and playing on old instruments and mouthpieces. What it seems to be is a level of resistance which prevents all of the air getting straight into the tubing immediately, leading to additional compression. On very old cornets this is caused by the tuning extension piece which creates a lump in the pipe. In newer instruments this comes down to the mouthpiece. Funnel shaped mouthpieces tend to sound flugely. Ones with an S shaped profile and a bit more room at the bottom of the cup have that distinctive sound. Ishuld do some recordings to demonstrate this on vintage and modern instruments. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
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